PDGA Discussion Board > PDGA Topics > > Increasing Non-member Fees: $5 --> $8
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Moderator005
Nov 02 2005, 03:58 PM
Jason, do you want to make a difference on a Worldwide Level in Organized Disc Golf?
Or do you just want the PDGA to move out of your way?
In either case the decision is an easy one, please make it and either join in or go away.
While I don't always understand or agree with Jason's paranoia/suspicion about the PDGA's finances, I value highly his enthusiasm, interpersonal skills, charisma, and leadership abilities. He is a tireless crusader for growing the sport both in his local region and throughout the land. He has donated dozens upon dozens of free CTP packages (http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/index_td.html) to tournament directors around the country. He offers online registration to any tournament that wants it. Under his watch, the number of courses in the region have expanded almost exponentially. Every year, he produces one of the richest tournaments in disc golf. I don't think he has anything on his mind other than growing organized disc golf on the largest of scales.
I value Jason's contributions much more over that of yourself, Nick, and given your widely demonstrated lack of interpersonal skills and leadership abilities, if there's anyone who should "go away," I wish it would be you.
Nov 02 2005, 04:28 PM
Wow Jeff, that was well put. I wish I hadn't just slammed you on the NEFA Pages! :D
And I wish Nick would start attacking me too, I could use a little Lung Boost every now and again.
Hey Nick, you're mama is so fat.
sandalman
Nov 02 2005, 05:21 PM
Hey Nick, you're mama is so fat.
thats not his mama... thats his ego in drag :D:o:D
Nov 02 2005, 05:28 PM
if he leaves there, theres a chance he will end up here. no!
quickdisc
Nov 02 2005, 06:01 PM
Jason, do you want to make a difference on a Worldwide Level in Organized Disc Golf?
Or do you just want the PDGA to move out of your way?
In either case the decision is an easy one, please make it and either join in or go away.
While I don't always understand or agree with Jason's paranoia/suspicion about the PDGA's finances, I value highly his enthusiasm, interpersonal skills, charisma, and leadership abilities. He is a tireless crusader for growing the sport both in his local region and throughout the land. He has donated dozens upon dozens of free CTP packages (http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/index_td.html) to tournament directors around the country. He offers online registration to any tournament that wants it. Under his watch, the number of courses in the region have expanded almost exponentially. Every year, he produces one of the richest tournaments in disc golf. I don't think he has anything on his mind other than growing organized disc golf on the largest of scales.
I value Jason's contributions much more over that of yourself, Nick, and given your widely demonstrated lack of interpersonal skills and leadership abilities, if there's anyone who should "go away," I wish it would be you.
Well , at least David Vincent is gone !!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
His sarcasm towards better players , will not be missed.
Nov 03 2005, 03:24 AM
Jeeze, Donny. That horse is dead. Let it go, already. You're becoming a one-note guy.
Nov 03 2005, 11:34 AM
Wow, I can't believe Steve used an apostrophe in "you're mama." Thank you Jeff. So nice to be the beneficiary of your Nick slam. That stuff you linked to, btw, may need revamping.
This year (I guess I mean 2006 now) we're trying to get the PDGA to include our DVD in the PDGA package going to PDGA TDs. We offered to donate 700 of the 2005 MSDGC DVDs to the PDGA for this purpose. We're still waiting for the PDGA's decision on that. We still mail out a few small packages to TDs, though.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 03:09 PM
Wow Jeff, that was well put. I wish I hadn't just slammed you on the NEFA Pages! :D
And I wish Nick would start attacking me too, I could use a little Lung Boost every now and again.
Hey Nick, you're mama is so fat.
You'll need to give me a little more to work with Steve. Besides I am not attacking Jason in the same sense that he constantly and without fail attacks the folks that do the work that makes the PDGA what it is. I am actually appealing to him to join the effort. To join it inspite of his injured ego and shouting matches with a few folks. To look on the PDGA not as some corporate giant (which is a hilarious notion if you understand what it really is made up of) but as guys "just like him" who are doing their best to move our sport forward.
The difference between all of them and Jason, is that they have made a commitment to join together, work together and rely on eachother to get some worldwide level things done and he has shown a reluctance to "be a part" of something that he does not have 100% control over (I don't know how to put that any more nicely).
I don't dislike you or Jason, I have little real idea of who you are, certainly we have never met, and I doubt that your online persona is a direct reflection. Even "HeHateMeJLo" I don't feel one way or the other about. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. What I am aware of in your writings is when you are making it an "us" versus "them" p contest all of the time, when the reality simply is quite different. There is only an "us". We are the PDGA; even you are the PDGA. Heck even non-members are not completely without PDGA connection. This may make some folks uncomfortable, but it remains true.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 03:13 PM
Wow, I can't believe Steve used an apostrophe in "you're mama." Thank you Jeff. So nice to be the beneficiary of your Nick slam. That stuff you linked to, btw, may need revamping.
This year (I guess I mean 2006 now) we're trying to get the PDGA to include our DVD in the PDGA package going to PDGA TDs. We offered to donate 700 of the 2005 MSDGC DVDs to the PDGA for this purpose. We're still waiting for the PDGA's decision on that. We still mail out a few small packages to TDs, though.
Jason,
Can you tell us a little about what you hope this will accomplish? What are your goals for offering this?
Thanks.
atreau3
Nov 03 2005, 03:28 PM
Wow, I can't believe Steve used an apostrophe in "you're mama." Thank you Jeff. So nice to be the beneficiary of your Nick slam. That stuff you linked to, btw, may need revamping.
This year (I guess I mean 2006 now) we're trying to get the PDGA to include our DVD in the PDGA package going to PDGA TDs. We offered to donate 700 of the 2005 MSDGC DVDs to the PDGA for this purpose. We're still waiting for the PDGA's decision on that. We still mail out a few small packages to TDs, though.
Jason,
Can you tell us a little about what you hope this will accomplish? What are your goals for offering this?
Thanks.
Maybe he's trying to show the PDGA what a real disc golf video should look like. Maybe TD's will give this video to the newest participant of the tournament or the newest player... it will surely be a great promo for disc golf, the 04 video was amazing! A few years ago, I tried to show the 01 or 02 worlds video to a few of my ultimate friends... the response was that it was boring, like watching ball golf... the 04 MSDGC video shows disc golf in a more attractive light...
sandalman
Nov 03 2005, 03:58 PM
Can you tell us a little about what you hope this will accomplish? What are your goals for offering this?
Thanks.
huh??? he's offering to supply the PDGA with a boatload of free copies. do you believe he has some machiavellian agenda?
what if he is simply trying to promote disc golf?
life is not always, in fact almost never, as complicated as you make it, nick.
Pizza God
Nov 03 2005, 04:11 PM
They donate 700 DVD's, the PDGA mails them out. TD's get what is touted as the best disc DVD out there, and they get almost free advertizing.
Looks like a win win situation to me.
Other than the crap that happened this year and the fact that the DVD is for a NON PDGA tournament, I still think the PDGA should take them up on the DVD offer and distribute them. (That, and I would get one :D)
bfunkyp
Nov 03 2005, 04:16 PM
can I get the DVD sooner if I become a TD?? :D
This would be like someone offering to give out 700 DevilHawks to the PDGA. Take the best example of a disc golf product and spread it far and wide to support disc golf. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Nov 03 2005, 04:36 PM
But Nick seems to be one of those "if your not pdga then your not good enough" type of members.
DweLLeR
Nov 03 2005, 04:56 PM
But Nick seems to be one of those "if your not pdga then your not good enough" type of members.
Amen brother.....first Nick states we're all in this together then the next thread is what does the MSDGC have to gain out of this? Which is it Nick? We all here to move disc golf forward or are we here to question the motives of non-PDGA members?
Lyle O Ross
Nov 03 2005, 05:05 PM
Nick is so right on this. Haven't you guys heard of subliminal messages?
It's all in there and once you run it on your computer the gov'mint can spy on you.
Not only that but Jason knows who shot Kennedy and as a bonus... he knows who shot J.R.
Yes... All this can be yours absolutely free... or for the low low cost of all your life savings after you've been brainwashed.
Order now... just dial 1-900-consiparacy and give them your credit card number.
Lyle O Ross
Nov 03 2005, 05:07 PM
BTW Nick - Jason wants the same thing we all want... Acceptance and influence. If he is trying to get it by donating this disc... well, I'd vote for him.
veganray
Nov 03 2005, 05:21 PM
That is so off base, it isn't even funny. If Jason craved acceptance, why would he purposely provoke, antagonize, & deconstruct every person in a position to grant him such acceptance? :confused:
I have a strong belief that he and Steve (and I know them quite well) want to evangelize for disc golf, and that getting the finest DVD in the biz out into as many hands as possible is one of their many methods of doing so, FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT!
My $0.02.
gnduke
Nov 03 2005, 06:02 PM
I think SCs should get the first copies. :cool:
Moderator005
Nov 03 2005, 06:39 PM
But Nick seems to be one of those "if your not pdga then your not good enough" type of members.
Actually, Nick seems to be one of those "if your not following the gospel of Nick Kight then your not good enough" type of members.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:12 PM
Wow, I can't believe Steve used an apostrophe in "you're mama." Thank you Jeff. So nice to be the beneficiary of your Nick slam. That stuff you linked to, btw, may need revamping.
This year (I guess I mean 2006 now) we're trying to get the PDGA to include our DVD in the PDGA package going to PDGA TDs. We offered to donate 700 of the 2005 MSDGC DVDs to the PDGA for this purpose. We're still waiting for the PDGA's decision on that. We still mail out a few small packages to TDs, though.
Jason,
Can you tell us a little about what you hope this will accomplish? What are your goals for offering this?
Thanks.
Maybe he's trying to show the PDGA what a real disc golf video should look like. Maybe TD's will give this video to the newest participant of the tournament or the newest player... it will surely be a great promo for disc golf, the 04 video was amazing! A few years ago, I tried to show the 01 or 02 worlds video to a few of my ultimate friends... the response was that it was boring, like watching ball golf... the 04 MSDGC video shows disc golf in a more attractive light...
Maybe.
Luke Butch
Nov 03 2005, 07:13 PM
Nick- you accuse Jason of having an "us vs. them" mentality, when if you look at all your threads from an outsider's point of view they tend to all have a "Nick vs. the world" mentality.
And until you do more than discuss nuances of the PDGA rule book I don't think you have any right to criticize Jason and Steve.
They promote the sport of Disc Golf, and you do what to promote our game???? And arguing on message boards with Craig does not count as promoting the sport.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:13 PM
They donate 700 DVD's, the PDGA mails them out. TD's get what is touted as the best disc DVD out there, and they get almost free advertizing.
Looks like a win win situation to me.
Other than the crap that happened this year and the fact that the DVD is for a NON PDGA tournament, I still think the PDGA should take them up on the DVD offer and distribute them. (That, and I would get one :D)
Perhaps.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:15 PM
can I get the DVD sooner if I become a TD?? :D
This would be like someone offering to give out 700 DevilHawks to the PDGA. Take the best example of a disc golf product and spread it far and wide to support disc golf. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Would it be just like? What would be the difference?
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:18 PM
But Nick seems to be one of those "if your not pdga then your not good enough" type of members.
"Seems" perhaps, but am not. I work at disc golf on every level of the sport, so I don't think PDGA members are better than others, they just have a different level of commitment to the sport. A different understanding of their role within the sport. Not better, just different.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:22 PM
But Nick seems to be one of those "if your not pdga then your not good enough" type of members.
Amen brother.....first Nick states we're all in this together then the next thread is what does the MSDGC have to gain out of this? Which is it Nick? We all here to move disc golf forward or are we here to question the motives of non-PDGA members?
I never said they were out to gain, I simply asked Jason to elaborate on exactly why he is offering this plan. Particularly in light of his level of commitment to the PDGA, or lack there of. If it is a good reason, then I am all for it. I just want to here what it is. Strange? I don't think so.
I can question the motives of anyone I choose, I think even Jason would back me up on that right. And in consideration of all of his stated views on the PDGA it is not a stretch to ask for him to clarify exactly why he is proposing this. So I asked. I didn't say anything about his answer.
Yet.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:26 PM
That is so off base, it isn't even funny. If Jason craved acceptance, why would he purposely provoke, antagonize, & deconstruct every person in a position to grant him such acceptance? :confused:
I have a strong belief that he and Steve (and I know them quite well) want to evangelize for disc golf, and that getting the finest DVD in the biz out into as many hands as possible is one of their many methods of doing so, FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT!
My $0.02.
All guesses. Fun to read, but just guesses.
So what's the deal Jason. Why are you proposing this?
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 07:38 PM
Nick- you accuse Jason of having an "us vs. them" mentality, when if you look at all your threads from an outsider's point of view they tend to all have a "Nick vs. the world" mentality.
And until you do more than discuss nuances of the PDGA rule book I don't think you have any right to criticize Jason and Steve.
They promote the sport of Disc Golf, and you do what to promote our game???? And arguing on message boards with Craig does not count as promoting the sport.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhht.
In case you missed it, I don't judge Jason or Steve or anyone else by what they post here, THAT WOULD BE STOOPID!
This is for entertainment not deciding important issues or reaching meaningful conclusions upon which "REAL" action can be taken.
Though I'd like for Jason to join the rest of us, I don't hold any grudge against him. What is said here stays here. Kind of like Las Vegas. If you're taking it too seriously then you need to chill.
Besides, just how concerned do you think I really am about what anyone here has to say? It's mild entertainment.
Still, it would be fun to know what Jason and Steve had in mind for this proposal to give 700 dvds, and if that was the whole proposal and what else and why else it was.
Hopefully it won't be similar to Mike Crumps plan to take over the DG world... :p
Nov 03 2005, 07:40 PM
I am so glad you do not live in Houston!
bruce_brakel
Nov 03 2005, 08:03 PM
If Jason and Mike want to take over the disc golf world, the conspiracy theorists would ask them to stand in line behind Jon and me.
When Jason first proposed this to the Board he was not asking for anything. He just wanted the DVD to go in the envelope of stickers, patches, rulebooks and other stuff that is sent to a TD for every tournament he sanctions.
rhett
Nov 03 2005, 08:13 PM
deleted
RobBull
Nov 03 2005, 08:21 PM
Here is the link to the original thread. I think that there will be many happy TD's if the PDGA includes this. It sounds like there may be other companies willing to do this same thing.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=375307&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Nov 03 2005, 08:29 PM
Hey, critics and proponents together, our DVD plan is legit. Nick I can't respond again to everything you've said here but I'm starting to get the impression that if I fork over 55 bucks much of what you're preaching will be moot.
This is what I wrote about the plan; I wrote it in Word so I woudn't have typos.
Pizza_God succinctly and exactly summed up our motives. To add something, our 2004 MSDGC DVD seemed very popular, but to put it into real terms, we had 1000 made, sold a few hundred, gave away a few hundred, and have a few hundred left in the pro shop under tables and racks. You should see our racks.
Bad musicians are sometimes disappointed when their LPs sell less than a million copies. A million copies. We had a thousand copies made. A thousand copies. We didn't even sell and give away a thousands copies.
This and our general observations tell us that disc golf has not yet reached the masses, but we want to change that a little bit by making a good disc golf DVD AND getting it out there.
I've seen a lot of parts of the 2005 DVD, which I should mention is created by Steve Dodge, and it's excellent. And we're going to do this, run the MSDGC, and create a DVD of it, every year for many years to come. That's the other part of the plan.
ck34
Nov 03 2005, 08:30 PM
I'm sure PDGA HQ has to deal with this issue as a general policy decision on stuffing TD packets with promotional material independent of the source. I could see several other marketers seeking inclusion of their items in the packet. Not that that would be a bad thing but it does raise logistics and postage issues. Marketers usually pay money to get included in those "junk mail" ADVO and coupon packets you get in the mail.
In addition, content is relevant. Let's say a new disc manufacturer will supply 700 discs that haven't been PDGA approved and they don't plan to submit them for approval because it's for recreation. Let's say a DVD depicts behavior at a tournament that wouldn't be appropriate during a PDGA event?
At minimum, I could see the TD packet including a sheet with the contact info for where TDs could get free or discounted items for their event. Then, it's up to the TD to get the items they want.
Luke Butch
Nov 03 2005, 09:55 PM
Have you seen the 04' MSDGC DVD Chuck?
I didn't see a single thing that I could see the PDGA having any problem with.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 10:01 PM
I am so glad you do not live in Houston!
Me too.
LOL!
ck34
Nov 03 2005, 10:02 PM
Yes, I've seen it. My comment wasn't specific to any MSDGC DVD but in general from a policy standpoint since a DVD is involved.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 10:17 PM
This and our general observations tell us that disc golf has not yet reached the masses, but we want to change that a little bit by making a good disc golf DVD AND getting it out there.
OK.
I'm sure PDGA HQ has to deal with this issue as a general policy decision on stuffing TD packets with promotional material independent of the source. I could see several other marketers seeking inclusion of their items in the packet. Not that that would be a bad thing but it does raise logistics and postage issues. Marketers usually pay money to get included in those "junk mail" ADVO and coupon packets you get in the mail.
True.
So it comes down to how does this promote PDGA disc golf? I mean if we are going to foot not only the shipping bill but the very elite of PDGA Members and Volunteers mailing list, basically putting our unified stamp of approval on it, should it do more than show essentially a �private venture� that the PDGA was basically snubbed at?
Sure it may be a good dvd, I�ve seen the 04 version and it was excellent, but what does it or the event it is of do to directly support or promote the PDGA and it�s mission?
I�m not saying we should not do it, just that the decision is not as simple as greed might dictate.
neonnoodle
Nov 03 2005, 10:20 PM
Hey, critics and proponents together, our DVD plan is legit. Nick I can't respond again to everything you've said here but I'm starting to get the impression that if I fork over 55 bucks much of what you're preaching will be moot.
I don't know about moot, but you'd have at least some foundation upon which to lob your tomatos...
Nov 04 2005, 01:07 AM
This and our general observations tell us that disc golf has not yet reached the masses, but we want to change that a little bit by making a good disc golf DVD AND getting it out there.
OK.
I'm sure PDGA HQ has to deal with this issue as a general policy decision on stuffing TD packets with promotional material independent of the source. I could see several other marketers seeking inclusion of their items in the packet. Not that that would be a bad thing but it does raise logistics and postage issues. Marketers usually pay money to get included in those "junk mail" ADVO and coupon packets you get in the mail.
True.
So it comes down to how does this promote PDGA disc golf? I mean if we are going to foot not only the shipping bill but the very elite of PDGA Members and Volunteers mailing list, basically putting our unified stamp of approval on it, should it do more than show essentially a �private venture� that the PDGA was basically snubbed at?
Sure it may be a good dvd, I�ve seen the 04 version and it was excellent, but what does it or the event it is of do to directly support or promote the PDGA and it�s mission?
I�m not saying we should not do it, just that the decision is not as simple as greed might dictate.
My opinion is this:
If there is no objectionable content to the DVD and if it is relevant to the organization, the PDGA would have to be high on funny mushrooms to turn down 700 DVDs for free.
What's the harm? Shipping costs? I sincerely doubt it. Stuffing envelopes? I sincerely doubt it. Sour grapes, because the tourney was a huge success with touring pros, huge payout, and huge smiles by all who attended? Well, I'm not saying that this is the cause for hesitation, but it makes a heII of a lot more sense than the other reasons to this dues paying member.
gnduke
Nov 04 2005, 04:36 AM
The Reason is fairly simple. If the PDGA distributes any promotional material given to it by another organization, what grounds does it have to refuse to distribute other promotional material given to it by another organization ?
You give them 700 DVDs promoting your event and DG in general, I ship them 700 glossy catalogs/magazines from my disc store. I've got an article or two scattered within the publication and a couple of local tournament flyers so it is of general interest. How can they refuse to distribute my advertising magazine ?
It's kind of like religion in school, you can't let some of them in without letting all of them in.
Nov 04 2005, 11:01 AM
The Reason is fairly simple. If the PDGA distributes any promotional material given to it by another organization, what grounds does it have to refuse to distribute other promotional material given to it by another organization ?
You give them 700 DVDs promoting your event and DG in general, I ship them 700 glossy catalogs/magazines from my disc store. I've got an article or two scattered within the publication and a couple of local tournament flyers so it is of general interest. How can they refuse to distribute my advertising magazine ?
It's kind of like religion in school, you can't let some of them in without letting all of them in.
Why not? Organizations make these decisions every day. Who to partner with for what goal and who they are not going to partner with. They don't even have to have a reason. I think there is a huge difference between distributing marketing materials and distributing a DVD that has actual value to the recipients. If the DVD were a 5 minute commercial for Marshall Street, then it would be a marketing ploy. If it is a great entertaining disc golf DVD like the 2004 Marshall Street DVD, then it is a cool freebie to have available to some of the promoters of this sport.
bruce_brakel
Nov 04 2005, 11:08 AM
When I posted on this thread yesterday I had no idea this was the thread originally about raising the non-member fee at PDGA events from $5 to $8.
The other problems you have when you take free stuff from someone you are or will be doing business with is the loss of objectivity and the feeling like you owe them something back. It is difficult to take someone's free stuff and then just abuse them like any other customer.
Moderator005
Nov 04 2005, 12:28 PM
Getting back to the topic at hand (the proposed increasing of Non-member Fees: $5 --> $8) I encourage you all to read again what former PDGA Comissioner Pat Govang previously posted. Examining the relationship between the PDGA and Disc Golf World News could save tens of thousands of dollars and render moot any fee increase. Again, this is nothing personal against Rick Rothstein and DGWN - just a sound business decision the PDGA should look into.
This is an interesting discussion and, having spent time on the board, I’m aware of the time the board puts into decisions such as this. When I was active in that circle our office space ‘costs’ were limited to the meager rent that was paid to Brian Hoeniger, who ran the operation out of a room in his house in Toronto. I don’t think anyone can argue the value of the National Disc Golf Center (if so, take it to another thread ;)), but there are both project costs and ongoing overhead costs attached with this opportunity. I see this step as a move by the board to support the National Disc Golf center – and you may be ok with that logic. Such a facility can be leveraged in many ways to grow the sport – the increase will ultimately provide a great ‘return’ for the investment.
If the PDGA is looking for ways to leverage assets to support the growth of the sport, I wonder if they may be taking on too much or not considering all of the options. Quite before my time on the board, the PDGA’s relationship with the DGWN was formed as a win, win, win. It enabled a glossy, color magazine that was great for publicity, it put players names and their results in the pages of the magazine – really cool for the members, and it helped Rick Rothstein grow his newsletter into a business that provided some profit. Everyone ‘won’. I have to ask myself whether that is still the case – you may agree, let’s throw some numbers around. Per the website, the PDGA has 9231 members. Pro’s count for 26% which at $55per brings in $132k, the ams, roughly, $273k. Out of that $405k, the magazine is a key benefit. When I was around that cost was between $12 and $13 per member – let’s say with postage increases that number is now $14. That totals roughly $129k. Historically, the membership size accounts for approximately 20% of the total tournament players (one can easily calculate from the published demographics). Let’s extrapolate that from the 9231 members to about 46,000 fee payers being generated from sanctioned events. Here’s a wild guess, but let’s say that 25% of those fee payers are one day memberships. In numbers the $3 increase means about - $34,500 to the bottom line.
Hmmmm…. $129k for the Magazine compared to a tenuous change that will net $34k. The sport now has 2 magazines, the other one is given away free. Could the PDGA info be published there and be mailed to your house as a membership benefit (postage roughly $23k per year)? That would net the PDGA approximately $106k to the bottom line! I would think that it’s worth consideration.
I realize that pushes DGWN out of a comfy nest (its nice to have your circulation locked). Let me state, I respect Rick Rothstein and admire everything he has done and continues to do for the sport. I bring this up not as an attack on Rick’s status as an treasured icon of the sport but merely to question whether the logic that made sense 10 year’s ago still holds water, particularly now at the potential expense of those first experiencing the PDGA.
As a member, you would still get a magazine. You could also subscribe to DGWN (I know I would). I’m not saying that the people behind Disc Golf Magazine would even play ball, I’m just asking the question…
If you agree with this, say so. For a group of volunteer board members, it’s tough to make a change with a partner and former board member who has meant so much, one way to get the topic formally addressed at a board meeting is to file a petition with 20 signatures. I’d sign it. If your bashing the PDGA for conceptually sticking it to our future members maybe your logic is sound – but you can also something about it… just food for thought…back to work..
Pat Govang
#13902
The happily married, way too busy former commish
Nov 04 2005, 12:40 PM
The idea is to create a value add for TDs that run PDGA events by giving them a PDGA TD Pack. Marshall Street has offered to seed these packs with the 2005 MSDGC DVDs. Innova, Discraft, and Phenix Disc Sports have all told me that they would be interested in including products in a "PDGA TD Pack" that gets sent out to every PDGA TD a week or so before their event.
This creates value for the TD (having $50 to $100 in products delivered to your door to be given out at the event is huge!), value for the players (more prizes to be won is always great!), value for the sponsors (for the cost of hundreds of products, businesses get good press (usually /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) for donating product, and good advertising) and the PDGA increases the value of becoming a PDGA event. It is a win for TDs, players, sponsors and the PDGA.
If this idea is successful, perhaps a way to expand it in the future - and pay for the logistics / extra shipping - would be to offer to include promotional materials with no retail value in the packs at a per piece price, or however that type of thing works.
If the PDGA agrees to this idea (and my conversation with David Gentry just a few minutes ago indicates that they are leaning towards implementing it), then I, as a TD, would be very interested in running my event as a PDGA event. Creating the value at the MSDGC is quite a bit of work, and when I run the Frozen Forest event, it is tough to get pumped up to get sponsors. Getting a box of CTPs is a great start and would make the ($5) non-member fee, and filling out the forms very worth it.
Sorry about the thread drift back to the orginial topic. :D
Nov 04 2005, 01:20 PM
The problem with discontinuing the DGWN to save money is the economic problem that occurs when you remove a benefit and keep the price the same. It is similar to increasing the non-member fee without adding benefits. If you think that the price of membership is underpriced compared to the value, then the same number of people will renew their membership at the same price with less benefits. If you think that the price of membership is not currently underpriced, then fewer people will renew when the benefits are reduced. This is when the law of diminishing returns can be applied. As you reduce the value (thereby increasing profit per membership), you reduce demand (number of memberships goes down) which then removes any profit that would have been realized. I figure there are some people that are only members because of the DGWN subscription. But I don't know that as a hard fact. It is a tough call to make either on the DGWN issue or the non-member fee issue. Have we reached the point of diminishing returns or will people line up to play and be members no matter what the cost/value?
---I feel that I should note that I have been a photographer for DGWN. I have never received a fee for my services, but I do think of Rick Rothstein as a friend. I could be considered biased on this issue, but then I think most disc golfers are biased on this issue in some way.
neonnoodle
Nov 04 2005, 01:29 PM
The Reason is fairly simple. If the PDGA distributes any promotional material given to it by another organization, what grounds does it have to refuse to distribute other promotional material given to it by another organization ?
You give them 700 DVDs promoting your event and DG in general, I ship them 700 glossy catalogs/magazines from my disc store. I've got an article or two scattered within the publication and a couple of local tournament flyers so it is of general interest. How can they refuse to distribute my advertising magazine ?
It's kind of like religion in school, you can't let some of them in without letting all of them in.
I know he's from Texas, but this point is spot on, as another Ausie Texan would say, and as Gary normally is. Again, I don't know which way the PDGA BOD should decide, but it is not a simple issue.
Consider also the very public positions of the group offering the dvds also. If they do decide to allow some promotional materials into TD packages doesn't it make sense that they be coming from groups that openly and whole-heartedly support the PDGA and are a significant player in moving the world-wide agenda forward? Why would they want to include materials from groups that openly disagree with the direction the rest of us have decided to support?
Not a simple matter that can be decided by the label of "FREE".
veganray
Nov 04 2005, 01:43 PM
Why would they want to include materials from groups that openly disagree with the direction the rest of us have decided to support?
Not a simple matter that can be decided by the label of "FREE".
Because it's not a pissing contest; the good of the sport is supposed to be the goal!
gnduke
Nov 04 2005, 02:01 PM
I think the materials would have to be judged on what they do to promote the sport and the PDGA, not the intrinsic value of the materials.
RobBull
Nov 04 2005, 02:19 PM
Nick,
You talk about everyone else doing something positive for the sport and supporting the PDGA. Why don't you stop criticizing every idea that doesn't come from you and focus on your course evaluation project? I'm sure the course eval project is suffering because of your obsessive bed wetting over this issue. There are individuals other than you that have good ideas.
Lyle O Ross
Nov 04 2005, 02:48 PM
That is so off base, it isn't even funny. If Jason craved acceptance, why would he purposely provoke, antagonize, & deconstruct every person in a position to grant him such acceptance? :confused:
I have a strong belief that he and Steve (and I know them quite well) want to evangelize for disc golf, and that getting the finest DVD in the biz out into as many hands as possible is one of their many methods of doing so, FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT!
My $0.02.
It's amazing how little we know about human nature in general and ourselves in particular. I'd be willing to bet a gentleman or two that I'm less off base than you think. BTW - I didn't say a thing about who Jason might be looking to for acceptance...
However, that aside, there was a second reason and that is influence. Part of influence is marketing, Jason has some DVDs he can't move, and if the PDGA moves them for him he gets a ton of free advertising and skips the cost and hassle of mailing them. Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?
Moderator005
Nov 04 2005, 03:06 PM
Nick,
You talk about everyone else doing something positive for the sport and supporting the PDGA. Why don't you stop criticizing every idea that doesn't come from you and focus on your course evaluation project? I'm sure the course eval project is suffering because of your obsessive bed wetting over this issue. There are individuals other than you that have good ideas.
Amen, brother. Welcome to the choir.
It's not just the the course eval project that is suffering. Pretty much anything Nick's name is attached to is dragged down by his overbearing presence.
Nov 04 2005, 03:14 PM
I think Nick Kight is one of the reasons that all those guys started United.Disc.Golf or *******. :eek:
Nov 04 2005, 03:19 PM
That the PDGA might decide that the offering does not support what the PDGA is promoting, is a legitimate argument to not include the material. The point that once the PDGA includes one group's free stuff, they would need to include every group that asks is not a legitimate point. The PDGA should evaluate any offers and decide which offers work for the PDGA.
klemrock
Nov 04 2005, 03:45 PM
Hell froze over.
I agree with jon brakel.
Over the years, I've seen that DGWN's content evolved to/around the needs of the PDGA. Other publications might not willingly or easily make format changes that align with the PDGA. However, they might.
Why not give the member a choice of magazines?
DGWN would still retain a high percentage of its current subscribers and the new publication(s) would grow by picking up the crossovers. The PDGA would save some money and more folks would be able to get a piece of the disc golf pie.
Nov 04 2005, 03:46 PM
Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?
Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).
The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.
Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.
With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.
If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.
If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"
veganray
Nov 04 2005, 03:50 PM
Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?
Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).
The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.
Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.
With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.
If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.
If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"
That, my friend, is VERY well said! :D
Luke Butch
Nov 04 2005, 04:07 PM
How many people on here actually read all the old, deleted MSDGC threads and know about the dispute? Dan I know did, maybe Nick?
Jason had a problem with Guru, not the PDGA as a whole. I remember him and Steve getting along well with Dave Gentry, who was working with them towards the goal of NT status(before Jason had his official status revoked). They also have/had links for the PDGA on their site, as well as something I believe in the MSDGC tournament program.
They might not like Guru, but they don't hate the PDGA. The PDGA and Guru are NOT the same thing.
neonnoodle
Nov 04 2005, 04:44 PM
Nick,
You talk about everyone else doing something positive for the sport and supporting the PDGA. Why don't you stop criticizing every idea that doesn't come from you and focus on your course evaluation project? I'm sure the course eval project is suffering because of your obsessive bed wetting over this issue. There are individuals other than you that have good ideas.
LOL!
Not laughing at you, it's just funny that folks assume that users that enjoy posting here do nothing else. Ironic considering that the accusers obviously spend a comparable amount of time reading the posts and yet still manage to do all that they do.
I assure you my activities in the PDGA Course Evaluation Program are not deminished due to posting here from time to time.
LOL!
Trust me, you are taking this far more seriously than I am.
If Jason's intentions are pure it will be entirely obvious soon enough. If the PDGA says no thank you, let's watch how he responds. Nothing will be more telling.
If I were Jason and the PDGA didn't accept my plan I would go ahead and distribute the DVDs to TDs who request them with them just covering postage. I'd send two, one for the TD and one for them to give out as a prize at their event. Why is this whole deal so dependent on the PDGA shipping them out?
neonnoodle
Nov 04 2005, 04:48 PM
The idea is to create a value add for TDs that run PDGA events by giving them a PDGA TD Pack. Marshall Street has offered to seed these packs with the 2005 MSDGC DVDs. Innova, Discraft, and Phenix Disc Sports have all told me that they would be interested in including products in a "PDGA TD Pack" that gets sent out to every PDGA TD a week or so before their event.
This creates value for the TD (having $50 to $100 in products delivered to your door to be given out at the event is huge!), value for the players (more prizes to be won is always great!), value for the sponsors (for the cost of hundreds of products, businesses get good press (usually /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) for donating product, and good advertising) and the PDGA increases the value of becoming a PDGA event. It is a win for TDs, players, sponsors and the PDGA.
If this idea is successful, perhaps a way to expand it in the future - and pay for the logistics / extra shipping - would be to offer to include promotional materials with no retail value in the packs at a per piece price, or however that type of thing works.
If the PDGA agrees to this idea (and my conversation with David Gentry just a few minutes ago indicates that they are leaning towards implementing it), then I, as a TD, would be very interested in running my event as a PDGA event. Creating the value at the MSDGC is quite a bit of work, and when I run the Frozen Forest event, it is tough to get pumped up to get sponsors. Getting a box of CTPs is a great start and would make the ($5) non-member fee, and filling out the forms very worth it.
Sorry about the thread drift back to the orginial topic. :D
Sounds reasonable, I admit I don't know all that is involved. I'm glad there are folks willing to volunteer their time to figure such things out. That is of major value to me...
neonnoodle
Nov 04 2005, 04:51 PM
That is so off base, it isn't even funny. If Jason craved acceptance, why would he purposely provoke, antagonize, & deconstruct every person in a position to grant him such acceptance? :confused:
I have a strong belief that he and Steve (and I know them quite well) want to evangelize for disc golf, and that getting the finest DVD in the biz out into as many hands as possible is one of their many methods of doing so, FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT!
My $0.02.
It's amazing how little we know about human nature in general and ourselves in particular. I'd be willing to bet a gentleman or two that I'm less off base than you think. BTW - I didn't say a thing about who Jason might be looking to for acceptance...
However, that aside, there was a second reason and that is influence. Part of influence is marketing, Jason has some DVDs he can't move, and if the PDGA moves them for him he gets a ton of free advertising and skips the cost and hassle of mailing them. Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?
Not bad points. Still, I hold out hope that his intentions are pure.
Nov 04 2005, 05:03 PM
Hell froze over.
I agree with jon brakel.
:D Now if you'd said that you just saw frozen pigs from hell flying over Bevier I might have busted a gut!
Lyle O Ross
Nov 04 2005, 07:37 PM
Of course the PDGA is then in the position of marketing a non-sanctioned event that goes out it's way to slam the PDGA.... Now, I wonder why they wouldn't want to do that?
Sorry, Lyle, but your post is off-base on this (at the very least).
The MSDGC never 'went out of its way to slam the PDGA'. One of the organizers of the event had a very public issue with 'the PDGA', but in no way did the event either claim to be, or pretend to be, "anti PDGA". It was a non-sanctioned event, one of several hundred (thousand, perhaps?) held in the US on an annual basis.
Anyone that honestly claims to wish to 'promote the sport of Disc Golf' would be a lying sack of manure if they claimed that distribution of a MSDGC DVD could not potentially help to 'promote the sport'. Have you seen it? My 60 yr old mother-in-law has seriously considered taking up the sport since she watched all of about 3 minutes of it with my son.
With regard to Marshall Street wishing to move copies of the DVD and gain some potential sales in return, well, of course they would. They would be donating the DVDs with the same greedy self-interest that Innova, Discraft, Gateway, Phenix et al have in mind when they donate products or services. Do you really think Innova donates that much $$ to the USDGC for humanitarian purposes? Wake up and smell the capitalism already.
If 'the PDGA' is truly about 'promoting the sport' of disc golf, and not about petty feuds or 'I am going to take my ball and go home' then I can't see any legitimate reason not to take this offer seriously. In fact, I think not only would they be foolish not to do this, but they should be working their collective asses off to get other potential sponsors on board to create a whopper of a TD pack for each sanctioned event.
If there's a question to be asked about this, it should be, "Why did it take a couple of tree fahmers from Lestah to come up with this idea in the first place?"
While you make some very interesting points Dan, I'm not sure I agree with you. The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru. Guru just represented the embodiment of the PDGA and it was easy enough for Jason to say I hate Guru rather than admit he wanted the PDGA to play by his rules, and Guru acted as the voice of the PDGA in saying no. (I won't argue that Guru should not have taken Jason's bait and responded in kind, I will only say that if Jason had attacked me similarly I would have given a response similar to Guru's).
Moreso, Jason agreed to stop attacking Guru in his official capicity and could not hold to that agreement. Since Jason is the embodiment (along with Steve Dodge) of the MSDGC it would be hard to argue against the idea that the tournament does not act in the best interests of the PDGA. It is also hard not to argue that Jason was attacking the official representitive of the PDGA.
As for who the PDGA represents, while the PDGA enjoys the benefit of it's "association" with the USDGA, there is no official realationship between Innova and the PDGA, i.e. the PDGA does not openly support or act on the behalf of Innova. Innova has taken what I consider a great marketing tact in building one of the best events (if not the best) in the world. The PDGA surrepticiously gets benefit from that but not at an official level. The USDGA has paid the PDGA to put their logo on the front page of their site and Jason is welcome to do the same if he wishes his event to be similarly promoted.
As for the benefits that Innova receives when it donates to the PDGA, the PDGA evaluates it's worth (i.e. the worth of the PDGA brand) and makes a deal with Innova based on the worth of what Innova donates. Obviously, the PDGA does not feel the worth of DVD based on an unsanctioned tournament that underpins their own postion is high. I would be surprised if they did (actually shocked). The notion that Jason is acting only out of the best interests of disc golf belies his own post on this topic. I do not deny that the PDGA might get "some" value out of his matterials, but I might suggest that Jason and the MSDGC would get more benefit from the relationship than the PDGA would.
As for the notion that Jason was the first to think of this idea... I'm not biting. This marketing tact is as old as the hills and Jason is just jumping onto a well estabilished road. Even the PDGA has sent out promotional matterials of different types, and some of that probably happened long before Jason started playing the sport.
Last points, I have not seen the MSDGC DVD. It might well represent the sport (actually the testamonials are impressive). That is not the same as supporting the PDGA and in fact flies in their face. Should they support Jason at their own expense even if it is for the "good of the sport?" I'm not sure that overall, Jason's view really is for the "good of the sport." Instead of trying to compromise, when he couldn't get an NT on his terms, he made personal attacks on the the head of the PDGA. So, are we to believe that the PDGA is suppossed to buck it up and act for the "good of the sport" and for Jason's benefit when he won't do the same? Seems to be something missing here.
rhett
Nov 04 2005, 07:53 PM
Well written, Lyle. That's how I remember it going down, and I agree with your analysis.
Luke Butch
Nov 04 2005, 07:54 PM
While you make some very interesting points Dan, I'm not sure I agree with you. The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru. Guru just represented the embodiment of the PDGA and it was easy enough for Jason to say I hate Guru rather than admit he wanted the PDGA to play by his rules, and Guru acted as the voice of the PDGA in saying no. (I won't argue that Guru should not have taken Jason's bait and responded in kind, I will only say that if Jason had attacked me similarly I would have given a response similar to Guru's).
The thing with Jason and Guru began before the MSDGC- National Tour standards debate.
And Guru is NOT the PDGA. He sometimes represents them, but as he eventually admited he was often posting his personal feelings.
Nov 04 2005, 09:00 PM
beckyz
Nov 05 2005, 12:40 AM
Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.
Nov 05 2005, 12:50 AM
The argument between Jason and the PDGA went well beyond Guru. What you forgot were the posts where it was made clear that Guru was acting under the direction of the PDGA BOD. The issues dealt with payout, drinking at events, and dress code just to name a few. Again, this goes well beyond Jason vs. Guru
As Luke mentioned, this happened well before the MSDGC. While Jason did want certain things for his tournaments (i.e. allowing alcohol at lower-tiered events), a large part of his problem was the fact that tour guidelines were being put in place without the consultation/input of the TDs that will be running the events themselves.
And not to say I told you so, but some of the things that Jason wanted, such as lower minimum entry fees, and a relaxation of the original dress code, were changed after this all went down. Hmm......maybe he's not that crazy after all? Ok, he probably is, but even lunatics are allowed brief moments of lucidity I guess.
BTW, the MSDGC was an alcohol-free event. Not that anyone on the fringes of this situation would pay attention to stuff like that of course....
As for the notion that Jason was the first to think of this idea... I'm not biting. This marketing tact is as old as the hills and Jason is just jumping onto a well estabilished road.
Good point. So what was in the last 'TD pack' you saw at a sanctioned event? Yeah, thought so. No one ever claimed that Marshall St invented the idea of the 'freebie'.
Obviously, the PDGA does not feel the worth of DVD based on an unsanctioned tournament that underpins their own postion is high. I would be surprised if they did (actually shocked).
Well, Lyle, now I'm depressed. You seemed so intelligent (well, for a Texan at least). There's nothing 'obvious' about that statement at all. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were pulling that 'obviously' out of your as[/b]s. Read up the thread to what Steve posted and it would almost seem 'obvious' that the PDGA is on board with the idea.
Luke Butch
Nov 05 2005, 01:12 AM
Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.
Whoever ends up with the MSDGC at each tournament could doante it if they chose. That idea would benifit Marshall Street(more people see the DVD= more future sales) and DG in general.
neonnoodle
Nov 05 2005, 07:28 PM
Lyle, that is also my understanding of what happened.
Regardless of what happened, Guru has behaved well since, Jason... not so great.
Giving Jason all the credit for the tour standards changes is inaccurate Dan. These have all been hot topics for at least 18 years. It took us 20 years + to get the colared shirts for Majors. Not everyone liked it, but certainlly the majority did, and definitely the Majors TDs wanted it.
Jason and you are acting like the PDGA just forced these changes on everyone, when the truth is We the PDGA wanted them... meaning the membership and organizers.
I don't think we need to choose side here, we just need our friends to start acting like they are not 8 years old.
Nov 05 2005, 11:40 PM
Lyle, that is also my understanding of what happened.
Then I think you need to use the search feature and reread the appropriate threads.
Giving Jason all the credit for the tour standards changes is inaccurate Dan. These have all been hot topics for at least 18 years. It took us 20 years + to get the colared shirts for Majors. Not everyone liked it, but certainlly the majority did, and definitely the Majors TDs wanted it.
And your proof on the majority wanting the collared shirts is......? Interesting that you didn't comment on the lowering of the minimum entry fee either. Of course, it's much easier to ignore things that you're wrong about, isn't it? While Jason and Steve will surely not get credit for it being lowered, they were the first and most vocal about wanting to see that happen.
Jason and you are acting like the PDGA just forced these changes on everyone, when the truth is We the PDGA wanted them... meaning the membership and organizers.
We? Which 'We' is that Nick? Jason and I were both members when the shi[/b]t hit the fan over this, and while I can't speak for Jason, I know this 'we' didn't want it. Don't put words in other people's mouths, Nick, it's not very polite.
I don't think we need to choose side here, we just need our friends to start acting like they are not 8 years old.
Pot.<=>.Kettle
Nov 06 2005, 12:05 AM
Maybe another option would be to offer to donate the DVDs locally to youth organizations, church groups, or Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts while giving them demonstrations or free clinics. This would visibly promote the sport in the MSDGC area and increase number of players in the region.
That is a great idea and I will definitely bring it up with Jason.
Luke Butch
Nov 06 2005, 04:56 PM
Nick, you are definitely not a good representative of WHO the PDGA is.
Nov 06 2005, 08:03 PM
It'll be an excellent DVD, and the current one weighs about 3.6 oz. so it'll most likely weigh under 4 oz.
neonnoodle
Nov 07 2005, 01:38 PM
Dan,
I could tit for tat you til dooms day and you would just slip around every point we could find agreement on because you are looking to disagree rather than agree.
As proof I offer the following:
1) Jason and Brian fueded publicly here and on the NEFA board due directly to insults by Jason towards Brian and the PDGA.
2) As Jason and David Gentry were working things out so that the MSDGC could be a part of the PDGA tour, Jason continued his ill-advised tirades against Brian and the PDGA resulting in a suspension of his membership.
3) Lowering Entry fees- if you think Jason came up with that all on his own then you are more ignorant of our larger disc golf scene than I thought. It has been a hot topic since before you even threw a golf disc. Thing is the PDGA can only make recommendations, TDs set the final entry fees. Jason just whined and cried louder during that specific fight. He in no way came up with it on his own nor was the sole person behind it's eventual acceptance. John Biscoe, Dan Doyle and a majority of NT and A Tier TDs had more to do with it than Jason.
4) Jason seems now, though it is not certain from his words here or elsewhere, that he wants to join the PDGA effort to promote disc golf. If so than that represents a significant shift in his positions.
5) I understand you defending your friend Dan. Thing is he f ed up, and now he has to deal with the consequences. He attacked the work and people who are the friends of many many PDGA members, and we, like you, reserve the right to call him out on the carpet for it.
6) When and if he ever provides a serious and heartfelt apology to all those he has bashed in his broad and random attacks I will most definitely be one of the folks to welcome him back into the fold and support his efforts to promote disc golf. Even if I don't agree with everything he does; the difference will be that he won't speak or act from a position of "us" vs "them" on worldwide disc golf promotional issues. It will just be an "us".
Spin away. But these are in essence the sum total of what is going on with Jason.
bruce_brakel
Nov 07 2005, 01:55 PM
So I was talking to a TD this weekend about the increase in non-member fees. He brought up the subject. He said something like, "I don't think my non-member recs and intermediates will pay another dollar. If the PDGA goes to $8 I just won't bother sanctioning the lower divisions." He was also a little "urinated" off that the PDGA would do something like that without getting any kind of reality check from the TDs who run a lot of events.
So I went and looked at the stats. From his events the difference between $5 and $8 is a loss in income of about $1000. Not only does the PDGA lose the $8 per non-member but it also loses the $3 for every lower division player.
I can understand the PDGA not consulting him. He does not appear as the TD of record for most of his events. But when you have a TD who collected $3,000+ over the course of a season in $2, $3 and $5 fees from rec and intermediate players, and he is the TD of record for all of his events and he is the one actually sending you the check every time, it is strange that he would learn about this for the first time on a message board.
ck34
Nov 07 2005, 02:07 PM
Until you get the actual tour documents, reading Board minutes and assuming that's the final plan can be misleading. Many players, TDs, Competition Committee and those on here have had a chance to comment thru the normal process from the time the Board met at the Summit to completing the documents.
tpozzy
Nov 07 2005, 03:09 PM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
rhett
Nov 07 2005, 03:11 PM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
Nice job, Theo. I think the PDGA BOD is doing a fine job.
Moderator005
Nov 07 2005, 03:11 PM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
Thank goodness!
Chicinutah
Nov 07 2005, 03:24 PM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
Glad to hear it guys, that'll help us around here. ;)
Pizza God
Nov 07 2005, 03:34 PM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
The right right choice right now. Thanks
Nov 07 2005, 03:39 PM
Yes Nick you rule. No need for me to become one of your anti-celebrities. Dan Howard very nice points please stop. No we didn't invent the product piggyback, but occasionally someone asks if we invented disc golf. Regardless of my many sins don't you think the MSDGC DVD in the PDGA TD pack idea is a good one that will benefit everyone? If it makes any difference, Steve does the Lion's share of all DVD work, came up with the PDGA plan for it, and is the driving force behind such affiliations. Don't let me get in the way, cause it's good for everybody. And I do apologize, at least for my continuing thread hijacking.
Nov 07 2005, 03:41 PM
I don't mean to interrupt myself, but that's going to make it really hard now NOT to run PDGA tournaments.
RobBull
Nov 07 2005, 03:47 PM
Thank you PDGA BOD. I will sanction two events as soon as the tour standards are posted.
Thanks to Bruce Brakel for bringing this issue to everyone's attention.
ck34
Nov 07 2005, 03:49 PM
Perhaps under the right circumstances, the value of part of your DVD donation would be converted into credit toward a sanctioning fee?
bruce_brakel
Nov 07 2005, 03:52 PM
I don't like having to be the gadfly. Thank you for not making it harder to send you guys $500 for every tournament we run.
neonnoodle
Nov 07 2005, 04:31 PM
Don't let me get in the way, cause it's good for everybody. And I do apologize, at least for my continuing thread hijacking.
Jason, the thing really is about you not getting in your own way.
Are you able to see how some of your comments could be viewed as direct attacks on not just Guru and the PDGA BOD (which is offensive as is) but on all the folks who volunteer? They at least deserve your apology don't they?
Then perhaps we can finally move on.
sandalman
Nov 07 2005, 04:36 PM
...the thing really is about you not getting in your own way.
now THAT, coming from whom it came, is TRULY TRULY hilarious! :D:D:D:D :D
gnduke
Nov 07 2005, 06:05 PM
:eek: :cool:
quickdisc
Nov 08 2005, 12:01 AM
How about just rounding it out to $10.00 ?
paerley
Nov 08 2005, 01:35 AM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
Was the increase tabled for further discussion of possible increases in the higher tiered events? Maybe A Tier only or something? I'm not saying I think it's a good idea, but if somone is ready to compete in the higher dicisions at an A Tier, I think that they would be ready to pay the extra fee or ready to join the PDGA.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 09:57 AM
...the thing really is about you not getting in your own way.
now THAT, coming from whom it came, is TRULY TRULY hilarious! :D:D:D:D :D
Perhaps Pat, but there is a significant difference between bonking a few mess bored idjits over the head and outright war on the PDGA and all it's many volunteers.
I, of late, rarely do the latter...
I'd like to give Jason the benefit of the doubt, and think that he, like me, is mainly just kidding around most of the time here, but he needs to at least put his toe in the water and have something in common as far a having something at stake in promoting PDGA disc golf.
Like he said, if he were a PDGA member much of what he says could be taken on a different level. The thing is, he is not.
(Note: Tactic to make this about me duly noted. Comforting to know that you still have a special thing for me.)
sandalman
Nov 08 2005, 10:45 AM
duh. i wasnt trying to make it about you. i was just laughing at you commenting on someone's attitude who wasnt getting things "his own way".
as far as pdga membership goes, i cannot wait until this board is members only!
Luke Butch
Nov 08 2005, 10:47 AM
...the thing really is about you not getting in your own way.
now THAT, coming from whom it came, is TRULY TRULY hilarious! :D:D:D:D :D
Perhaps Pat, but there is a significant difference between bonking a few mess bored idjits over the head and outright war on the PDGA and all it's many volunteers.
I, of late, rarely do the latter...
I'd like to give Jason the benefit of the doubt, and think that he, like me, is mainly just kidding around most of the time here, but he needs to at least put his toe in the water and have something in common as far a having something at stake in promoting PDGA disc golf.
Like he said, if he were a PDGA member much of what he says could be taken on a different level. The thing is, he is not.
(Note: Tactic to make this about me duly noted. Comforting to know that you still have a special thing for me.)
Is he allowed to once again become a PDGA member and certified official????
johnbiscoe
Nov 08 2005, 10:53 AM
Was the increase tabled for further discussion of possible increases in the higher tiered events? Maybe A Tier only or something? I'm not saying I think it's a good idea, but if somone is ready to compete in the higher dicisions at an A Tier, I think that they would be ready to pay the extra fee or ready to join the PDGA.
A tiers are already members only.
underparmike
Nov 08 2005, 11:59 AM
We just voted to keep the non-member/non-current member fee at $5.
Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner
Nice job, Theo. I think the PDGA BOD is doing a fine job.
Glad to hear it guys, that'll help us around here.
The right right choice right now. Thanks
Thank you PDGA BOD. I will sanction two events as soon as the tour standards are posted.
Thanks to Bruce Brakel for bringing this issue to everyone's attention.
I don't like having to be the gadfly. Thank you for not making it harder to send you guys $500 for every tournament we run.
No, god, no, no, NO, Thank YOU! Thank me, and Nick, and Jeff and Bruce and Billy and Theo and Lucy and Jen and Grover and Todd and Ken and Bernice and Althea and Jesus and Mary and Joseph and Shaggy and Kevin and Larry and Jon and Terry and Milton and Ray and Jay and Scooby and Bud and Xavier and Don and Chris and Kris and Christine and Ned! Thank everyone dam it! Because we are all the PDGA and WE are the ones who made the sport what it is today, WE THE PDGA did EVERYTHING and WE THE PDGA WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE CREDIT FOR EVERYTHING! WE THE PDGA are just the greatest people to ever walk the planet! WE THE PDGA ARE FAULTLESS, WE THE PDGA ARE OMNISCIENT AND OMNIPOTENT! WE THE PDGA DO IT ALL IN DISC GOLF AND NO ONE ELSE DOES ANYTHING! DISC GOLF WOULD BE NOWHERE WITHOUT THE PDGA! NEVER MIND THAT WE JUST MOVED OUT OF GURU'S GARAGE A COUPLE MONTHS AGO, WE ARE THE PDGA AND WE ARE THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOOD ABOUT DISC GOLF AND DON'T YOU EVER, EVER, EVER FORGET IT, YOU PAGAN NON-PDGA SCUMBAGS! YOU DON'T EVEN DESERVE TO POST HERE YOU NON-CURRENT MEMBER DIRTBALLS LIKE JASON SOUTHWICK!
That's right Jason, you are just leaching off all the PDGA's hard work. You'd be nowhere without the PDGA, you flippin' freeloader scum! Never mind that you built your own private course 17 years ago and you run one of the top 10 disc golf events in the world, since you are not a current PDGA member, YOU ARE SLIME! WE DON'T NEED YOU, RATBREATH! YOUR OPINION IS WORTHLESS UNTIL YOU COUGH UP THE MONEY TO LINE THE PDGA'S POCKETS, YOU STUPID FINK FACE! WE THE PDGA WON'T TELL YOU WHAT WE WILL DO WITH YOUR MONEY, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US, YOU BIG RHINOCEROS TURD!
So thanks to everyone in the PDGA that made this happen.
james_mccaine
Nov 08 2005, 12:10 PM
BIG RHINOCEROS TURD!
:D I'm easily amused.
Nov 08 2005, 01:06 PM
Thank you Michael. Nick can I just cut and paste from my other public apologies?
Nick are you the voice of the PDGA, or are your views yours and yours alone? I'm not sure the PDGA wants to stand by your discussion page posts, but with increasing frequency, you're sort of passing yourself off as the PDGA spokesperson. Does being the PDGA's Volunteer of the Year entitle you to represent the PDGA without qualification? I'm asking, because some of what you say -- or, more precisely -- the frequency and vehemence with which you say things, sounds a little wacko. No problem, though, I like wacko. But self-caricature is funnier and easier to take when it's intentional.
I just want to be clear that when I engage you in public debate, I'm not necessarioly representing Marshall Street and you are not necessarily representing the PDGA. Right? I mean, isn't it more honest to admit up front that we're just a couple of opinionated guys making noise?
teamtrim
Nov 08 2005, 01:55 PM
Mike, if this is all so clear to you, then yes, you really should just quietly go away. We do not share your stinking thinking on this topic. If we did none of us would join the PDGA, nor attend PDGAs, nor run PDGA events.
We do, AND YOU DO TOO, so get real or get lost.
Actually Nicholas, a ton of us current PDGA members do share Mike's thinking, and are seriously considering becoming part of the ever-growing base of non-members. And I play a ton of evenTTs every year. I would gladly make the transition of planning my touring schedule around major non-sanctioned events every year, and be not only happy, but overjoyed that my money is not going to the ghost-sponsor that is the PDGA.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 04:46 PM
Thank you Michael.
For what? What are you thanking Mike for precisely? For mocking the combined efforts of all those who have made organized disc golf what it is today? That is the sort of slap in the face that shows his (and your if that is what you are thanking him for) complete and total ignorance (and arrogance). What exactly are you thanking him for?
Nick can I just cut and paste from my other public apologies?
Yes, please. Where did you apologize to the to the PDGA and it's broader network of volunteers including PDGA Tournament Directors? Please post it here.
Nick are you the voice of the PDGA, or are your views yours and yours alone?
They are my own as a PDGA Member to a non-PDGA Member.
I'm not sure the PDGA wants to stand by your discussion page posts, but with increasing frequency, you're sort of passing yourself off as the PDGA spokesperson.
Really? When have I ever claimed to speak for the PDGA Board of Directors or any other PDGA Member. The closest I have come to that is to say that our standards come from a long line of develping and sharing best practices from around the PDGA. That they have been slowly developed out of the majority wants and needs of PDGA Organizers and Members. Is that the same as being their spokesperson?
Does being the PDGA's Volunteer of the Year entitle you to represent the PDGA without qualification? I'm asking, because some of what you say -- or, more precisely -- the frequency and vehemence with which you say things, sounds a little wacko.
What for example? That you have been aimlessly attacking the PDGA? Is there some question about that? That you basically insulted all of the TDs who ever had anything to do with setting the tour standards (Why? Because you know better then them? That you are better at insulting Brian and PDGA BOD members?)? What precisely has been whacko?
No problem, though, I like wacko. But self-caricature is funnier and easier to take when it's intentional.
I don't know if you are whacko, I do know that you have been pretty consistent and deliberate in your vigilant work to attack on every available front, even though you are not a PDGA member nor have expressed any desire to return to being one.
I just want to be clear that when I engage you in public debate, I'm not necessarioly representing Marshall Street and you are not necessarily representing the PDGA. Right? I mean, isn't it more honest to admit up front that we're just a couple of opinionated guys making noise?
I would like this to be a debate, but you have thus far been nothing short of evasive whenever a serious question comes up, and more than often offensive (perhaps not so to the takers, but definitely to the providers).
But no, I do not speak for the PDGA BOD or any other PDGA TDs or members other than coming from an understanding and appreciation for their contributions towards where we are and where we will go.
We've never met, and chances are we would get along well face to face, but in this forum we have been oil and water. I am not a petty guy, I don't care what is said here I am ready to move on, hopefully together. Even with loud mouths like Mikey and Mike Crump. Just don't ever expect me to be a bystandard when someone rips into my friends or belittles their efforts.
Have I ever belittled your constructive efforts or the MSDGC?
I'm not sure what you want to debate; can you lay it out for us?
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 04:53 PM
Mike, if this is all so clear to you, then yes, you really should just quietly go away. We do not share your stinking thinking on this topic. If we did none of us would join the PDGA, nor attend PDGAs, nor run PDGA events.
We do, AND YOU DO TOO, so get real or get lost.
Actually Nicholas, a ton of us current PDGA members do share Mike's thinking, and are seriously considering becoming part of the ever-growing base of non-members. And I play a ton of evenTTs every year. I would gladly make the transition of planning my touring schedule around major non-sanctioned events every year, and be not only happy, but overjoyed that my money is not going to the ghost-sponsor that is the PDGA.
What position precisely is that? Be specific? Tell us exactly what you find so objectionable? Mike is more about loose and undefinable animosity because our membership has now rejected him and his agenda 2 times by direct vote and he can't accept it. What is it that you agree with? I am interested to hear it.
What do you have? Or is it just a general feeling that you can't put into words or actions?
ANHYZER
Nov 08 2005, 04:58 PM
Most of us find your condescending posts objectionable, and some of us find you objectionable. Specific enough?
teamtrim
Nov 08 2005, 06:38 PM
Although I have already voiced my objections on several occassions...
My main objection is the fact that the TD's of tournaments are having to pay the PDGA for each tournament player that enters their event, despite the FACT the PDGA does nothing more for that specific tournament other than advertise it on a tour schedule, which if my memory serves me correctly, is a job that volunteers do anyway. Not only do they not solicite sponsorship, send representatives or officials, etc., but what they do send is a banner to advertise the PDGA. Wow...great marketing campaign...WE pay the PDGA to advertise.
I hope that more tournaments go the way of the MSDGC (which is by far the best tournament in the country from what I hear)...which I am sure scares the ***** out of the PDGA. Not only are those guys doing a superior job of running an event without the "help" of the PDGA, they are a pleasure to talk to and seem to take criticism constructively...you should be taking notes Nick.
Nov 08 2005, 06:53 PM
I say go yeah baby and distribute the DVD for us please PDGA. We haven't got the resources and it'd be one heck uv a piggyback and no one receiving it would mind. It's a really good disc golf DVD. And Nick you once again win all arguments. You are a freaking genius. Come to our tournament.
Nov 08 2005, 07:01 PM
I have to say that GrunioN has approached all of these topics and after the PDGA mafia jumped on him because he was a "nobody" he persued his own site and own data. Yes the IRS has been in touch with him and in time 2005s numbers will be in his lap to. PDGA has been called out numerous times and the only thing they seem to have to say is jump on the wagon. I think the numbers of people that have brains are increasing and the blue banner you have pulled over everyones eyes sporting the PDGA logo is starting to be deamed inadequate. I think the peasants are starting to become restless and we as volunteers need to realize that the overall picture of DG is not carried by the PDGA and their oppression but actually YOU! We are making this sport what it is today. The PDGA title is only a money filtering monopoly that is being driven by greed.
Fresh cup of coffee anyone?
Moderator005
Nov 08 2005, 07:05 PM
Most of us find your condescending posts objectionable, and some of us find you objectionable. Specific enough?
Just in case that wasn't specific enough, I'll add to that:
Nick's presence actually hinders many efforts. I think a lot of people would get more involved with the Mid-Atlantic Disc Club and the PDGA but decide not to because of having to interact with Nick. He doesn't respect others viewpoints and "bullies" acceptance towards his opinions. He does not have the personality to be involved in leadership roles in disc golf. He will never lead others through derision and condescension.
Luke Butch
Nov 08 2005, 07:26 PM
Nick- what TD's were deeply offended by Jason's opinions of the PDGA? The vast, vast majority of TD's do not read this board, so unless you personally E-mailed them all, I don't think they've ever heard of it. In fact, I'd bet most have not heard of the MSDGC yet (although I bet they will soon).
I think YOU were offended, not the average PDGA member or TD. You need to realize that the vast majority of members on here SUPPORT Jason and what he doing for the sport.
You are the (as in only one) minority on this. No one cares anymore that Jason and Guru had a spat last year beside you. Even Guru is hopefully over it. We are living in the present, not the past. Come join us.
Good memories: Yeti's speech as he accepts his cash this year at the MSDGC. :D
gnduke
Nov 08 2005, 07:55 PM
Although I have already voiced my objections on several occassions...
My main objection is the fact that the TD's of tournaments are having to pay the PDGA for each tournament player that enters their event, despite the FACT the PDGA does nothing more for that specific tournament other than advertise it on a tour schedule, which if my memory serves me correctly, is a job that volunteers do anyway. Not only do they not solicite sponsorship, send representatives or officials, etc., but what they do send is a banner to advertise the PDGA. Wow...great marketing campaign...WE pay the PDGA to advertise.
I hope that more tournaments go the way of the MSDGC (which is by far the best tournament in the country from what I hear)...which I am sure scares the ***** out of the PDGA. Not only are those guys doing a superior job of running an event without the "help" of the PDGA, they are a pleasure to talk to and seem to take criticism constructively...you should be taking notes Nick.
I take objection that.
The PDGA is the backbone of organized Disc Golf.
What major tournaments would exist without the PDGA ?
Who would spread the word ?
How many players would travel beyond their local area ?
You may say that lots of non-sanctioned events exist, and they do. Many of them are very well run. How long would they last without a substantial PDGA player base ?
The PDGA is the corporate face and the health of the sport is tied to the health of the PDGA.
The above is of course my own opinion and as always I could be wrong.
Luke Butch
Nov 08 2005, 08:17 PM
But would DG die?? I doubt it.
Yes, there would be few tournaments, but DG would not be any less fun to play. And since the VAST majority of DG'ers are casual players, I'm sure many of them could care less.
I'm very glad we have the PDGA and all the people that volunteer their time(except Nick). But I don't think the PDGA is everything.
Luke Butch
Nov 08 2005, 08:17 PM
But would DG die?? I doubt it.
Yes, there would be few tournaments, but DG would not be any less fun to play. And since the VAST majority of DG'ers are casual players, I'm sure many of them could care less.
I'm very glad we have the PDGA and all the people that volunteer their time(except Nick). But I don't think the PDGA is everything.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 08:35 PM
Although I have already voiced my objections on several occassions...
My main objection is the fact that the TD's of tournaments are having to pay the PDGA for each tournament player that enters their event, despite the FACT the PDGA does nothing more for that specific tournament other than advertise it on a tour schedule, which if my memory serves me correctly, is a job that volunteers do anyway.
Annie with the Big Red Curls, have you ever run a PDGA event?
Have you ever volunteered at a PDGA event?
Have you ever read the PDGA Tour Agreement?
Here is a short list of the very specific things the PDGA does for PDGA Sanctioned Tournaments:
1)Provides a guarantee of excellence on a worldwide scale for the highest standards of organized disc golf competition.
2)Provides otherwise expensive insurance coverage for the event.
3)Promotes the event on a worldwide level, an otherwise VERY expensive and difficult undertaking.
4)Provides standards of equipment used.
5)Provides standards of discs used.
6)Provides standards of entry fees.
7)Provides standards of payouts.
8)Provides standards of rules of play.
9)Provides the administrative disciplinary process.
10)Provides the support network by which disciplinary actions are enforced worldwide.
11)Provides player ratings for use in determining appropriate divisional participation.
12)Provides worldwide coverage of results.
13)Provides organization of schedule to maximize participation for your specific event.
14)Provides best practices for promoting your event on the local and regional level.
15)Provides best practices for attracting and securing sponsorship for your event.
16)Provides a forum on a worldwide level in which you can promote and gather support and participants for your specific event.
17)And so on�
You seem to want to separate the work and value provided by PDGA Volunteers from what the PDGA IS, when they are inseparable! What I do for the PDGA, I do to provide direct value to our membership, events, course pros and overall efforts to promote disc golf on a worldwide level. It is insulting of you to say that it doesn't count as far as you are concerned. It shows precisely where you are coming from. In a Volunteer Based Organization it is natural that we need folks that are ready to give before they just take, that is a given.
Not only do they not solicite sponsorship, send representatives or officials, etc., but what they do send is a banner to advertise the PDGA. Wow...great marketing campaign...WE pay the PDGA to advertise.
Marketing disc golf on a worldwide letter is not easy, they have been actively working at it for about 5 years now, and as you perhaps know if you have ever tried to raise sponsorship on any level, it is a very difficult task. You say that they do not send any representatives or officials, right? What do you call the TD? What do you call the PDGA Officials in attendance? You say that all they do is send a banner, review the list above, then throw in the following:
1) Affiliate Club Program
2) Disc Golf (World) News and Disc Golf Magazine PDGA Pages
3) EDGE Program
4) PDGA Radio
5) Direct PDGA Cash Sponsorship to National Tour Events and the Worlds.
6) Supplying paid PDGA Marshals for National Tour Events and the Worlds.
7) Supplying communication media for State Coordinators and even Regional Clubs to resolve important issues that cost $$$.
8) Supporting and promoting Women's Events.
9) Organizing a vast network of volunteers via committees and work groups to provide ever better service and benefits to PDGA Members and Events.
10) PDGA Player Ratings Program
11) PDGA Course Evaluation Program
12) And so on�
Are you trying to say that the VALUE of all this (and more) does not exceed the amount in event fees and membership dues? If you are, then I contend that you do not know enough about what is involved, because the value is worth no less than 100 TIMES the amount gathered from those means.
I hope that more tournaments go the way of the MSDGC (which is by far the best tournament in the country from what I hear)...which I am sure scares the ***** out of the PDGA.
I'm sure you do, considering your point of view. Consider all of the benefits the MSDGC receives from the PDGA regardless of whether they give anything back or not. What it comes down to is whether you are willing to be a part of the worldwide effort to promote disc golf or whether you just leach off of all they have provided, do provide and will continue to provide.
I don't care if you take ownership are a PDGA Member and Organizer and strongly and adamantly argue for changes within the PDGA; what I will not stand for is folks that take all the benefits (including posting on this message board) and bash the very organization providing it without taking the trouble to even educate themselves about what is really going on.
Not only are those guys doing a superior job of running an event without the "help" of the PDGA, they are a pleasure to talk to and seem to take criticism constructively...you should be taking notes Nick.
Not only are those guys doing the job with the support, bidden or unbidden, of the PDGA, but they are basing it primarily on the accomplishments of all the PDGA organizers that came before them. And though I'll have to take your anonymous word for it that they take criticism well, they certainly have failed to give criticism well. Personally I hope that they are able to see their way back into the fold. There criticisms will be good fuel for positive change when presented from a position of common concern.
I take notes on everything Little Miss Annie. If you want any more discussion on this or anything else out of me, come out from under your momma's skirt and let everyone know who you are. What are you afraid of?
rhett
Nov 08 2005, 08:37 PM
did anybody read all of that??? :confused:
Luke Butch
Nov 08 2005, 08:45 PM
did anybody read all of that??? :confused:
No.
But I did look at the list section, and not a single thing on it has to do with the majority of people that play DG.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 08:46 PM
I say go yeah baby and distribute the DVD for us please PDGA. We haven't got the resources and it'd be one heck uv a piggyback and no one receiving it would mind. It's a really good disc golf DVD. And Nick you once again win all arguments. You are a freaking genius. Come to our tournament.
Perhaps, but one thing is for sure: You still have not offered any answers to the serious questions, nor an apology to the folks who deserve one.
Why should the PDGA do anything for you? Seriously? Because it's free!?! Haven't you already milked the PDGA dry enough for the promotion of the MSDGC? Now you want them to promote it to their top organizers? Please offer some reason beyond it's free and a good dvd and in light of your attacks and insults on not only the PDGA but all the folks you will be sending this dvd too.
Others here may have a short memory (and as I've said, I am willing to have a short memory if you offer a real apology) but I (Rhett and Lyle) at least remember your hurtful and undeserved statements. If it was just you and Guru that would be one thing, but you basically threw your bull crud indiscriminately at everyone, and that just ain't cool.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 08:50 PM
Mike Crump is back. What's new?[eye roll]
I have to say that GrunioN has approached all of these topics and after the PDGA mafia jumped on him because he was a "nobody" he persued his own site and own data. Yes the IRS has been in touch with him and in time 2005s numbers will be in his lap to. PDGA has been called out numerous times and the only thing they seem to have to say is jump on the wagon. I think the numbers of people that have brains are increasing and the blue banner you have pulled over everyones eyes sporting the PDGA logo is starting to be deamed inadequate. I think the peasants are starting to become restless and we as volunteers need to realize that the overall picture of DG is not carried by the PDGA and their oppression but actually YOU! We are making this sport what it is today. The PDGA title is only a money filtering monopoly that is being driven by greed.
Fresh cup of coffee anyone?
RobBull
Nov 08 2005, 08:52 PM
It makes it easier to read when this is all that is displayed.
*** You are ignoring this user ***
rhett
Nov 08 2005, 08:52 PM
It makes it easier to read when this is all that is displayed.
*** You are ignoring this user ***
:D
teamtrim
Nov 08 2005, 09:41 PM
If you want any more discussion on this or anything else out of me, come out from under your momma's skirt and let everyone know who you are. What are you afraid of?
Certainly not you...
Stephen Johnson #21066
love ya.
DweLLeR
Nov 08 2005, 10:35 PM
Most of us find your condescending posts objectionable, and some of us find you objectionable. Specific enough?
Just in case that wasn't specific enough, I'll add to that:
Nick's presence actually hinders many efforts. I think a lot of people would get more involved with the Mid-Atlantic Disc Club and the PDGA but decide not to because of having to interact with Nick. He doesn't respect others viewpoints and "bullies" acceptance towards his opinions. He does not have the personality to be involved in leadership roles in disc golf. He will never lead others through derision and condescension.
Very interesting you say this........just last summer I found myself working a 2nd shift job. I had all sorts of time to offer to the PDGA as a volunteer. I contacted the right people and they directed me to Nick. I was leary of it at first due to reading some of the ranting and ravings of Nick. I tried to get involved but found myself lacking interest in working for someone of his nature.
neonnoodle
Nov 08 2005, 11:20 PM
I have answered your questions Jason, kindly return the favor and answer mine.
Thank you Michael.
For what? What are you thanking Mike for precisely? For mocking the combined efforts of all those who have made organized disc golf what it is today? That is the sort of slap in the face that shows his (and your if that is what you are thanking him for) complete and total ignorance (and arrogance). What exactly are you thanking him for?
Nick can I just cut and paste from my other public apologies?
Yes, please. Where did you apologize to the to the PDGA and it's broader network of volunteers including PDGA Tournament Directors? Please post it here.
Nick are you the voice of the PDGA, or are your views yours and yours alone?
They are my own as a PDGA Member to a non-PDGA Member.
I'm not sure the PDGA wants to stand by your discussion page posts, but with increasing frequency, you're sort of passing yourself off as the PDGA spokesperson.
Really? When have I ever claimed to speak for the PDGA Board of Directors or any other PDGA Member. The closest I have come to that is to say that our standards come from a long line of develping and sharing best practices from around the PDGA. That they have been slowly developed out of the majority wants and needs of PDGA Organizers and Members. Is that the same as being their spokesperson?
Does being the PDGA's Volunteer of the Year entitle you to represent the PDGA without qualification? I'm asking, because some of what you say -- or, more precisely -- the frequency and vehemence with which you say things, sounds a little wacko.
What for example? That you have been aimlessly attacking the PDGA? Is there some question about that? That you basically insulted all of the TDs who ever had anything to do with setting the tour standards (Why? Because you know better then them? That you are better at insulting Brian and PDGA BOD members?)? What precisely has been whacko?
No problem, though, I like wacko. But self-caricature is funnier and easier to take when it's intentional.
I don't know if you are whacko, I do know that you have been pretty consistent and deliberate in your vigilant work to attack on every available front, even though you are not a PDGA member nor have expressed any desire to return to being one.
I just want to be clear that when I engage you in public debate, I'm not necessarioly representing Marshall Street and you are not necessarily representing the PDGA. Right? I mean, isn't it more honest to admit up front that we're just a couple of opinionated guys making noise?
I would like this to be a debate, but you have thus far been nothing short of evasive whenever a serious question comes up, and more than often offensive (perhaps not so to the takers, but definitely to the providers).
But no, I do not speak for the PDGA BOD or any other PDGA TDs or members other than coming from an understanding and appreciation for their contributions towards where we are and where we will go.
We've never met, and chances are we would get along well face to face, but in this forum we have been oil and water. I am not a petty guy, I don't care what is said here I am ready to move on, hopefully together. Even with loud mouths like Mikey and Mike Crump. Just don't ever expect me to be a bystandard when someone rips into my friends or belittles their efforts.
Have I ever belittled your constructive efforts or the MSDGC?
I'm not sure what you want to debate; can you lay it out for us?
Pizza God
Nov 09 2005, 05:03 AM
Fun fun fun, I love a thread like this.
I read that super long post from Nick (It sure is getting cold all of a sudden)
Actually, Nick said it better than most have. He lists all the advantages of being a PDGA tournament.
He did not mention that SEVERAL parks will not allow a tournament unless it is PDGA. They want to see a PDGA tournament held in there town.
It is also easier to get sponsorship when you can say you are a PDGA tournament.
You will get more out of town players if you are a PDGA tournament (I realize that some tournaments debunk that statement)
Even non PDGA tournament have been using this web forum (supplied by the PDGA) to promote there tournament. Including MSDGC. (and don't forget that it was going to be a PDGA tournament AND an NT event at one time)
klemrock
Nov 09 2005, 10:37 AM
What a surprise. Another thread all about little girls throwing mud at each other.
Thank you, Theo, for making the $5 decision. I agree that keeping the nonmember fee low will generate more cash and less angst in the long run.
But higher rates will come. Flowers don't grow without seeds. In order for the PDGA to help grow the sport, money is needed. The money for this comes from you and me through tournaments, membership dues, and merchandising. The money from these avenues goes toward a better PDGA organization, new headquarters, and other investments that WE BENEFIT FROM.
At the same time, I believe that nonsanctioned events are still important in those areas where sanctioned tourneys don't draw many players and where there is a large novice population. You've got to educate the newbies before you stick your hand out or put a price tag on playing. After the seeds are planted and the value of working with the PDGA can be seen, that's when new players might be ready to make a personal contribution and support disc golf.
dave_marchant
Nov 09 2005, 11:11 AM
The PDGA is the backbone of organized Disc Golf.
What major tournaments would exist without the PDGA ?
Who would spread the word ?
How many players would travel beyond their local area ?
You may say that lots of non-sanctioned events exist, and they do. Many of them are very well run. How long would they last without a substantial PDGA player base ?
The PDGA is the corporate face and the health of the sport is tied to the health of the PDGA.
The above is of course my own opinion and as always I could be wrong.
A simple case study to back this up: Renny Mules & Renny Muleskins 2005 (http://www.charlottedgc.com/renny_mules_05.htm)
Mules was a 1 day C-Tier on Saturday with no cash added.
Muleskins was a 1 day non-sanctioned skins match on Sunday. $600 added to the Pro purse. $250 added to the Am purse.
How do you think attendance went??
37 both days, 21 C-Tier only, 5 Non-sanctioned only.
Take away church and family reasons for this and you are still left with an overwhelming case that people took the value offered by the PDGA over the $850 added cash.
FWIW _T_T_ attended both events. :D
cbdiscpimp
Nov 09 2005, 11:19 AM
The PDGA is the backbone of organized Disc Golf.
What major tournaments would exist without the PDGA ?
Who would spread the word ?
How many players would travel beyond their local area ?
You may say that lots of non-sanctioned events exist, and they do. Many of them are very well run. How long would they last without a substantial PDGA player base ?
The PDGA is the corporate face and the health of the sport is tied to the health of the PDGA.
The above is of course my own opinion and as always I could be wrong.
All I have to say is Players Cup and MSDGC!!! The pros dont care about the PDGA or playing sanctioned events. It just so happens that all but 2 of the good paying tournaments are sanctioned by the PDGA right now. If there was an NT one weekend that paid 2500 top prize and an unsanctioned event that same weekend that promised 5000 for 1st place I can guarantee you the pros are going where the 5000 grand is and they are skipping the NT. Maybe the ams wont travel as far for unsanctioned events but the pros are going to go where the money is and thats a fact!!!
klemrock
Nov 09 2005, 11:22 AM
. . . people took the value offered by the PDGA over the $850 added cash.
Interesting!
underparmike
Nov 09 2005, 12:59 PM
What position precisely is that? Be specific? Tell us exactly what you find so objectionable? Mike is more about loose and undefinable animosity because our membership has now rejected him and his agenda 2 times by direct vote and he can't accept it. What is it that you agree with? I am interested to hear it.
What do you have? Or is it just a general feeling that you can't put into words or actions?
Tricky Dick, let's get your facts straight, just for kicks. I ran for the BOD ONCE. ONE TIME. UNO. 1.
I ran for the BOD because the BOD refused to let me see the PDGA's financial statements. I'm not bitter about losing the election. I was bitter long before that because the BOD doesn't want the membership to know how the members' money is spent. I accept the voters' decision, although, when I ran, the votes were counted by Guru's wife, and we all know if I got on the BOD the first thing I'd submit for a vote would be to fire Brian's worthless money-grubbing [I'm a potty-mouth!], so, the vote counter wasn't too objective in my humble opinion.
The second thing I'd have done as a BOD member would be to vote on suspending Tricky Dick Nixon Kight's PDGA membership for conduct detrimental to the PDGA. But, since he's Volunteer of the Year now it really shows you how OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY THE PDGA BOD is.
Thank goodness Jason & Steve showed us all it is completely possible to be extremely successful WITHOUT THE PDGA!!! THANK YOU!!!
Nov 09 2005, 01:07 PM
With the platform of positive things you'd hope to accoplish, I can't fathom why you didn't win.
underparmike
Nov 09 2005, 01:12 PM
witty, it wasn't all about winning. aren't you glad i at least gave the voters a choice, unlike the last election? i know you and Nick and Guru just don't get it. let's be honest, most disc golfers are clueless potheads who don't know who's stealing their PDGA money.
briangraham
Nov 09 2005, 01:17 PM
what TD's were deeply offended by Jason's opinions of the PDGA? The vast, vast majority of TD's do not read this board, so unless you personally E-mailed them all, I don't think they've ever heard of it. In fact, I'd bet most have not heard of the MSDGC yet (although I bet they will soon).
I generally try to stay out of the mud slinging contests on the discussion board because it is seldom that anything positive or constructive comes from it, but I do have an opinion on this subject that I would like to share.
Let me first preface this post by saying that I have heard nothing but good things about the MSDGC and as a TD, I have nothing but respect for what the event organizers have created and accomplished with their event. The video they produced was outstanding and I hope to be able to attend that event one of these days.
That being said, I was very disappointed and somewhat offended in what transpired last year between the tournament director and the PDGA. As a long time TD of many PDGA tournaments and a member of the National Tour committee, I found it very disconcerting that the organizers of a quality event like the MSDGC would seek to become a NT event and then demand that they be allowed to excuse themselves from all of the guidelines, that all of the other NT Events had agreed to abide by. The NT guidelines were developed by the NT Committe, and not by "the PDGA". The NT Committee was comprised of all of the TD's of the NT Events. While I do not personally agree with every NT guideline that we developed, I and every other NT tournament director, agreed to follow them because we were attempting to create a cohesive force and consistent tour that we felt would help move our sport forward.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with some of the guidelines or having a difference of opinion, however I take offense when that person begins publicly attacking and denouncing the PDGA and its staff for it. There is a right way and a wrong way to accomplish one's goals, and that was absolutely the wrong way. Jason Southwick is obviously a very talented individual who cares deeply about our sport. Just think how much better the PDGA and our sport could be if he and others like him (Mikey Kernan) channeled their energy into making positive changes from within instead of the needless provocation that benefits absolutely nobody.
I hope that the MSDGC eventually becomes an NT event because I feel that they are a deserving quality event. I also hope that the organizers will attempt to work within the current system in the future to make positive changes instead of the tactics that have led to the unfortunate situation that we now have.
I am very proud to be a supporter of the PDGA and very grateful that we have such dedicated and hard working people working on our behalf!
Regards,
Brian Graham
Tournament Director:
- Hall of Fame Classic NT
- 1996 PDGA Amateur World Championship
- 2006 PDGA Pro World Championship
Nov 09 2005, 01:49 PM
I can understand your views Brian Graham. I'm not the most diplomatic person. In retrospect, I'm glad it all went down the way it did, painful as it was. We actually agreed to everything in the NT Agreement, except the final condition that I couldn't be the TD. It wouldn't have made all that much difference, but symbolically it would have felt like we were getting bullied. I also think we accidentally tapped into some anti-PDGA sentiment, so people signed up fast and supported us.
Running our own tournament without an authority above us is more motivating because the tournament is completely our responsibility. To be perfectly frank, I can't imagine working this hard and spending this much money just to let the PDGA dictate certain details of our event. We're a bunch of rebels, and we're more inclined to take the advice of the players who attend our events. We're pretty bad at taking orders, though.
Nov 09 2005, 02:15 PM
Amen, Brian. And Amen, Jason.
In my opinion, the method of Jason's initial disagreements was incorrect. Also, in my opinion, many of his points were valid.
Before the 2005 NT Agreement was finalized, we did have great discussions with the Tour Director. The PDGA adjusted some of the agreement, we caved on some of the points. Everyone listened and things changed. I think the NT is better off for it.
Right now, we (the PDGA/NT & the MSDGC) are both working towards growing and supporting disc golf. The PDGA's rules give us a structure. The PDGA ratings, course evaluations, schedule, AM & Pro Worlds are some of the bigger things the PDGA does (in my opinion). The MSDGC is trying to create a frame work in which we can showcase the top players, help the top players to earn a living playing disc golf, and create a kick butt DVD that gets many new players and spectators to join our ranks.
It was unfortunate that the path to get here was taken, but I think we are all headed in the same direction. Maybe someday our paths will merge.
Steven Dodge
Co-TD MSDGC
veganray
Nov 09 2005, 02:25 PM
What are you doing posting? Get back to work on the DVD!!!!! :mad:
briangraham
Nov 09 2005, 03:47 PM
Jason/Steve,
Thanks for the replies!
I too, hope that all of the friction between the MSDGC and the PDGA is in the past. This is a very exciting time for our organization and our sport. The National Disc Golf Center will open next summer and will provide the PDGA with all sorts of new opportunities to promote our great sport. We desperately need talented people like yourselves to help us move in the right direction. I think everyone's similarities vastly outweigh our differences. We are all very passionate about disc golf and that cannot be a bad thing unless we let it be.
I hope to meet you guys sometime and I look forward to the next video.
and Jason....don't sell yourself short. People signed up for tournament because you and Steve run a high quality event, not because of any anti-PDGA sentiment.
Regards,
Brian Graham
Luke Butch
Nov 09 2005, 04:00 PM
A tournament that fills 144 players 6 months before the tournament shows something special. And I have no doubt that the 06' MSDGC will fill before the end of February.
I feel bad for those that aren't able to attend this tournament. It is something special.
veganray
Nov 09 2005, 04:18 PM
32/144 spots were full 364 days in advance! Luke is right, DO NOT MISS THIS EVENT!!!
rhett
Nov 09 2005, 05:19 PM
Running our own tournament without an authority above us is more motivating because the tournament is completely our responsibility. To be perfectly frank, I can't imagine working this hard and spending this much money just to let the PDGA dictate certain details of our event.
I guess you missed the point about how it's the NT Committee and not "the PDGA" that establishes the NT Guidelines. The NT Committee is comprised of the the NT TDs and a couple of more people, so in effect the NT TDs are telling themselves what to do.
So I hope you continue to produce top-notch high-quality disc golf events. I also hope that in the future you will not seek to be a part of disc golf series' that you don't want to be part of. It was really ugly and it didn't need to be. "No thanks, we don't want to be an NT Event" is pretty dang easy to say.
neonnoodle
Nov 09 2005, 06:59 PM
A tournament that fills 144 players 6 months before the tournament shows something special. And I have no doubt that the 06' MSDGC will fill before the end of February.
I feel bad for those that aren't able to attend this tournament. It is something special.
Don't feel bad. Some of us go to events for more than just selfish reasons; such as supporting a good TD.
ANHYZER
Nov 09 2005, 07:02 PM
A tournament that fills 144 players 6 months before the tournament shows something special. And I have no doubt that the 06' MSDGC will fill before the end of February.
I feel bad for those that aren't able to attend this tournament. It is something special.
Don't feel bad. Some of us go to events for more than just selfish reasons; such as supporting a good TD.
How is playing at one of the most well run tournaments 'selfish'?
Doc, Nick needs a change of prescription :o
atreau3
Nov 09 2005, 07:21 PM
[QUOTE]
*Don't feel bad. Some of us go to events for more than just selfish reasons; such as supporting a good TD.*
what a retarded comment...makes me think of Jeff's "go back under your bridge" remark
ANHYZER
Nov 09 2005, 07:23 PM
It's my remark to little Nickie...
atreau3
Nov 09 2005, 07:24 PM
It's my remark to little Nickie...
I understand dave... talking about Nick's...
ANHYZER
Nov 09 2005, 07:28 PM
If you're talking about Jeff's signature...
"Nick, shut the F up and go crawl under your bridge."
- 'Dirty' David Vincent to Nick Kight
Yeah, that's one of my many salutations to little Nickie,
Luke Butch
Nov 09 2005, 07:41 PM
I confess. I am a very selfish person. I go to tournaments that I enjoy playing and have a lot of fun at. I am a horrible person.
Please forgive me oh perfect one.
ANHYZER
Nov 09 2005, 07:45 PM
Me too. I even skip the tournament the next year if they mess up.
Nov 09 2005, 08:24 PM
I hope to meet you guys sometime and I look forward to the next video.
Hey Brian, we did meet! You were running a doubles league / tournament (perhaps in Augusta) and David Wold and I stopped by to play the courses in the area - we were on a three month disc golf odyssey, checking out over 150 courses to see what it would take to come up here to Maple Hill and build one better. Or perhaps, as good as the best.
Afterwards you, and a bunch of locals took us to "Hot Foods by Calvin". I think you gave me your "PDGA National Disc Golf Center Coordinator" business card. I think I still have it.
(I also met you again at the USDGC last year in the scoring shed - but my scores were so easy to add, you probably forgot.-)
quickdisc
Nov 09 2005, 10:29 PM
I confess. I am a very selfish person. I go to tournaments that I enjoy playing and have a lot of fun at. I am a horrible person.
Please forgive me oh perfect one.
:D You are forgiven , my son !!!!
adogg187420
Nov 10 2005, 02:37 AM
Don't feel bad. Some of us go to events for more than just selfish reasons; such as supporting a good TD.
Lol, ok...that was dumb.
briangraham
Nov 10 2005, 10:05 AM
Steve.....you're right! I do remember meeting you guys and having lunch together at Calvin's. Sorry but I am terrible about remembering names. I wish you and Jason only the best with the MSDGC and I hope for everyone's sake that you and the PDGA are able to iron out your differences.
Regards,
Brian Graham
neonnoodle
Nov 10 2005, 02:14 PM
I confess. I am a very selfish person. I go to tournaments that I enjoy playing and have a lot of fun at. I am a horrible person.
Please forgive me oh perfect one.
Yes, perfect. That obviously is me you are talking to. Perfect.
Go, by all means, it has always sounded like a fun tournament. All I'm saying is that I don't go to tournaments where the TD has attacked every other PDGA TD as being inferior and insults the PDGA at every opportunity. It doesn't have to be your criteria. Go, have fun, by all means, you're not less perfect, you just have different standards, which is fine, for you and not for me. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because we differ on this. TDs are one of the top three things I take into mind when deciding on whether to attend a tournament. The other two are course and friends that will be there.
I suppose it is also selfish of me to only go to tournaments where I respect the TD.
neonnoodle
Nov 10 2005, 02:15 PM
Steve.....you're right! I do remember meeting you guys and having lunch together at Calvin's. Sorry but I am terrible about remembering names. I wish you and Jason only the best with the MSDGC and I hope for everyone's sake that you and the PDGA are able to iron out your differences.
Regards,
Brian Graham
So Steve, on that front has any headway been made? Or is it an Andy Reid/TO situation?
Nov 10 2005, 06:24 PM
I don't know who Andy Reid is or why he doesn't like T.O., although I would guess that he is probably a point guard on one of the other MLB teams that doesn't like the new "no hip check" rule. And no, I don't think it is like that. :D
We are all for the hip check.
bfunkyp
Nov 10 2005, 07:31 PM
I don't know who Andy Reid is or why he doesn't like T.O., although I would guess that he is probably a point guard on one of the other MLB teams that doesn't like the new "no hip check" rule. And no, I don't think it is like that. :D
We are all for the hip check.
hysterical
neonnoodle
Nov 10 2005, 09:04 PM
Perhaps this has all been just some big misunderstanding, let's see:
Jason, is the PDGA and all the volunteers that have worked for it through the years next to worthless in your estimation?
Have the standards and best practices they have figured out through all those years all junk?
Do you side with all the conspiracy theorists like Mike Kernan, Mike Crump and Victor La Blanc that the PDGA is trying to destroy organized disc golf?
Do you think that the PDGA does not return equal or greater value for all the fees it takes in to it's membership and organizers?
And lastly, Jason, do you owe nothing to all the organizers before you that built the player base the largely fills your events?
Do you think we should all just run events the way we want with no standards and the PDGA sanctioning not stand for anything?
If the answers to all of these questions is no, then I have completely misunderstood you for the last year. If not, why?
rhett
Nov 10 2005, 09:07 PM
I don't like it when Nick Kight argues as the voice of the PDGA.
I don't like it when people argue against Nick Kight as if Nick Kight were the PDGA.
If Nick Kight was the PDGA, all the SN guys would be begging for guru to take over.
neonnoodle
Nov 10 2005, 09:17 PM
I don't like it when Nick Kight argues as the voice of the PDGA.
I don't like it when people argue against Nick Kight as if Nick Kight were the PDGA.
If Nick Kight was the PDGA, all the SN guys would be begging for guru to take over.
I don't like speaking for Rhett Stroh either, if Rhett Stroh would step up, I wouldn't have to.
What exactly does Rhett Stroh find objectionable to Jason answering those questions and settling this once and for all?
Luke Butch
Nov 10 2005, 09:40 PM
Jason was in the middle of it, you were on the sidelines watching, and yet you're the one who can't let it go.
rhett
Nov 10 2005, 10:00 PM
I don't like speaking for Rhett Stroh either, if Rhett Stroh would step up, I wouldn't have to.
I step up and speak my mind and ask question. As it turns out for me, all questions have been answered to my satisfaction.
As it seems to have turned out for you (as usual), the answers were not a word-for-word regurgitation of your position statement so you are not satisfied.
Jeff_LaG
Nov 10 2005, 10:28 PM
Jeesus Christ! Nick just shut the f.u.c.k. up!
Nov 10 2005, 11:10 PM
f.u.c.k.
flimsy ubiquitous comments king
who wins the award?
neonnoodle
Nov 11 2005, 12:09 AM
Alright already. In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know if he has come to terms and understands that the PDGA is a lot more than just a set of standards for events, a couple paid staff members, or even a few elected volunteers. That it does real good. That by joining into it he joins in with taking on some desparately needed work, that few are willing or able to do.
Don't do it for mine, or Rhett's, satisfaction. Do it for your own, and let's move on.
You big beer swilling loud mouth! ;)
Nov 11 2005, 01:14 AM
Alright already. In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know if he has come to terms and understands that the PDGA is a lot more than just a set of standards for events, a couple paid staff members, or even a few elected volunteers. That it does real good. That by joining into it he joins in with taking on some desparately needed work, that few are willing or able to do.
Can this be moved to PM's? It seems like this is an important issue to you (which is fine) but the response you've gotten with all of your questioning to Jason has been largely negative. Since this appears to be more of a personal issue between the two of you, I would request that you to take this to PM and out of a public forum. That way, perhaps you can get the answers that are important to you (which again, is fine) and I can be spared reading your (in my opinion) twisted take on things. Win-win, right?
Nov 11 2005, 05:03 AM
Nick-
Your behavior in this thread, and others on this forum that I've read, has completely turned me off from the idea of volunteering ANY of my time, money, or sweat for the PDGA just in the mere chance that I'd be in some contact with you.
You have NO CLASS, ZERO PROFESSIONALISM, and a BAD ATTITUDE.
I'll continue to support my local courses, and help grow the local scene where I can. But I'll be darned if I'll go near the PDGA volunteer scene until 5 years after resign your post.
NO SOONER.
I suppose you don't speak for the PDGA, but you do your absolute best to make it look that way. And you seem to try to convey that to the players that don't know any better - sad.
Even as a volunteer, your salary should be halved. To attack the organizers of a great tournament in such a viscious and persistant manner is hardly "good for the game".
Your actions in this thread do nothing to grow membership. I'm not a PDGA member yet, but if the people that run this organization let you represent them in this manner, I DO NOT WANT TO BE A MEMBER OF THE ORGANIZATION.
Nick, you are the reason I've not stuck a stamp on this envelope sitting on my desk.
Signed,
Keith
gnduke
Nov 11 2005, 09:29 AM
Come to Texas and volunteer. I don't think Nick has ever been to Texas.
krupicka
Nov 11 2005, 10:03 AM
(I really don't want to get in the middle of this or fan this flame, but...)
Alright already. In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know ...
Maybe I missed something, but why exactly does Jason need YOUR acceptance to be back in the PDGA? These are the kind of statements that make it seem like you speak for the PDGA. You may want to be more careful in your rhetoric.
Moderator005
Nov 11 2005, 11:04 AM
Nick-
Your behavior in this thread, and others on this forum that I've read, has completely turned me off from the idea of volunteering ANY of my time, money, or sweat for the PDGA just in the mere chance that I'd be in some contact with you.
You have NO CLASS, ZERO PROFESSIONALISM, and a BAD ATTITUDE.
I'll continue to support my local courses, and help grow the local scene where I can. But I'll be darned if I'll go near the PDGA volunteer scene until 5 years after resign your post.
NO SOONER.
I suppose you don't speak for the PDGA, but you do your absolute best to make it look that way. And you seem to try to convey that to the players that don't know any better - sad.
Even as a volunteer, your salary should be halved. To attack the organizers of a great tournament in such a viscious and persistant manner is hardly "good for the game".
Your actions in this thread do nothing to grow membership. I'm not a PDGA member yet, but if the people that run this organization let you represent them in this manner, I DO NOT WANT TO BE A MEMBER OF THE ORGANIZATION.
Nick, you are the reason I've not stuck a stamp on this envelope sitting on my desk.
Signed,
Keith
Wow! While It bothers me that these comments are coming from an anonymous poster, they are educated, well-spoken, and therefore still have merit, imo.
This is exactly the sentiment many of us have been preaching for years now. Nick Kight is doing more harm than good for the PDGA and the regional and local organizations. It's time that these organizations give serious thought as to whether having Nick aboard is making a positive contribution to the organization and the growth of the sport.
sandalman
Nov 11 2005, 11:07 AM
In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know if ...
WTF! Nick gets a say in who is or isnt allowed in the "PDGA fold"???
Nick, in order for me to accept you back into the fold of humans with regard for their fellow man you will have to prove to me that you have come to terms and understands that you are not the PDGA, that you understand people other than yourself not only have a right to their own opinions, but that frequently those opinions turn out to be more correct than yours, that your ego has been deflated like the hindenburg, and that your lips are unstuck from the rear orifice of the PDGA.
Lyle O Ross
Nov 11 2005, 11:25 AM
If Nick doesn't want him I'll take him! We're running an NT out of Houston in April and anyone with the skill to set up what he and Steve have is WELCOME!
Jason come back. Dissent is good, even arguing, as long as the PDGA gets stronger for it in the end.
neonnoodle
Nov 11 2005, 11:38 AM
Keith,
While I suppose it is gratifying to think I have such power over you and others, I doubt very much that I am the sole or even main reason you have not found the will to volunteer. You either have it or you don't, nobody is going to be able to hold your hand and volunteer for you. Either you do it or you do not. Either you find the motivation to do it or you do not. It is a fairly simple matter. See a need, have the will to act, take action; or not.
I don't look down on folks who stop short. I completely understand their position having experienced it thousands of times myself. When you are ready you will find a way, and no one will stop you, no one.
dscmn
Nov 11 2005, 11:51 AM
hey nick,
by any chance are you standing on a mountain, arm raised, wearing tights, boots and is there a cape unfurling behind you? just thought i'd ask.
kevin
dscmn
Nov 11 2005, 11:53 AM
it's that last sentence. i hear the rocky theme.
neonnoodle
Nov 11 2005, 11:58 AM
hey nick,
by any chance are you standing on a mountain, arm raised, wearing tights, boots and is there a cape unfurling behind you? just thought i'd ask.
kevin
No, more times than not I'm tumbling down the side of a mountain having been pushed from my perch by you, Matt, Steve or John.
I don't like the preachy nature of this board, but sometimes there is no other way to say something other than to just say it.
So you can put away your Kryptonite.
Nov 11 2005, 12:01 PM
Ick I am not sure I understand so you might want to repeat yourself a few more times.
sandalman
Nov 11 2005, 12:22 PM
I don't like the preachy nature of this board
this statement by Nick Kight is the single moment in the entire history of communication and language that best defines irony.
discette
Nov 11 2005, 01:04 PM
I don't like the preachy nature of this board
this statement by Nick Kight is the single moment in the entire history of communication and language that best defines irony.
So nice, let's say it twice.
this statement by Nick Kight is the single moment in the entire history of communication and language that best defines irony.
:) :p
Lyle O Ross
Nov 11 2005, 02:36 PM
Let me apologize in advance, but this is too good for someone with a puerile sense of humor to pass up.
Soooo, would Nick's super persona be, Super Nick? And if so, what would his sidekick's name be? I always liked Dick Grayson from Batman... :)
Sorry Nick...
seeker
Nov 11 2005, 03:44 PM
Lyle - see you in LO!
RobBull
Nov 11 2005, 04:50 PM
If Nick is the super-hero, does that make Jason the villain?
Lyle O Ross
Nov 11 2005, 06:09 PM
Since Jason isn't stepping up to the plate on this I'll do it for him.
Jason: "That would be Beerman to you buddy!"
underparmike
Nov 14 2005, 04:05 PM
Do you side with all the conspiracy theorists like Mike Kernan, Mike Crump and Victor La Blanc that the PDGA is trying to destroy organized disc golf?
Do you think that the PDGA does not return equal or greater value for all the fees it takes in to it's membership and organizers?
Tricky Dick Nixon...allow me to correct your wild accusations yet again!
I don't believe that the PDGA is trying to destroy disc golf.
However, I do "think that the PDGA does not return equal or greater value for all the fees it takes in to it's membership and organizers".
underparmike
Nov 14 2005, 04:08 PM
In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know if ...
WTF! Nick gets a say in who is or isnt allowed in the "PDGA fold"???
Nick, in order for me to accept you back into the fold of humans with regard for their fellow man you will have to prove to me that you have come to terms and understands that you are not the PDGA, that you understand people other than yourself not only have a right to their own opinions, but that frequently those opinions turn out to be more correct than yours, that your ego has been deflated like the hindenburg, and that your lips are unstuck from the rear orifice of the PDGA.
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D:) :cool::D :p
bruce_brakel
Nov 14 2005, 04:56 PM
Do you side with all the conspiracy theorists like Mike Kernan, Mike Crump and Victor La Blanc that the PDGA is trying to destroy organized disc golf?
Actually, the PDGA is governed by a secret unelected committee of shape-shifting reptilians whose lineage goes back at least as far as the Sumarians and 2000 B.C. They don't give a wit about disc golf, per se. Taking over the PDGA is just part of a deeper, more nefarious plan. Mainly, they are just seeking to breed a healthier, tastier variety of meat, hence their interest in life-long fitness sports and banning the consumption of alcohol and illegal drugs. They have already taken over the International Olympic Committee and are working on major league baseball.
It's complicated. This might help you get up to speed:
http://forum.fok.nl/topic/609692
;)
idahojon
Nov 14 2005, 05:17 PM
Do you side with all the conspiracy theorists like Mike Kernan, Mike Crump and Victor La Blanc that the PDGA is trying to destroy organized disc golf?
Actually, the PDGA is governed by a secret unelected committee of shape-shifting reptilians whose lineage goes back at least as far as the Sumarians and 2000 B.C. They don't give a wit about disc golf, per se. Taking over the PDGA is just part of a deeper, more nefarious plan. Mainly, they are just seeking to breed a healthier, tastier variety of meat, hence their interest in life-long fitness sports and banning the consumption of alcohol and illegal drugs. They have already taken over the International Olympic Committee and are working on major league baseball.
It's complicated. This might help you get up to speed:
http://forum.fok.nl/topic/609692
;)
Which is almost as good as the theory of our local NBC affiliate's weatherman of 17 years, who recently left his job to pursue his thoughts that the Japanese "mafia" have giant electromagnetic generators in the Gulf of Mexico, which were responsible for the recent violent weather systems in the southeast US.
neonnoodle
Nov 14 2005, 05:42 PM
However, I do "think that the PDGA does not return equal or greater value for all the fees it takes in to it's membership and organizers".
How do you figure? That the physical rewards(DGWN, Rulebook, etc) do not equal what each of us pays to the PDGA each year? Yes you may be right in that sense.
But what about all of the administrative and volunteer work? Certainly with those included each member gets back more than what they put in value added services.
What would you prefer that the PDGA do, just send out $70 or so dollars in disc golf junk for each member? Or do you accept that they are doing more along the service side but it just isn't up to your personal standards?
If not what are thoses standards and how have they failed to meet them? Be specific.
m_conners
Nov 14 2005, 05:58 PM
DGWN is the best benefit of joining/renewing as a PDGA member. It's quarterly, therefore most of the information that is publicized in the DGWN is old news. That's my only complaint.
I do have one question: Why do so many people dis-like Nick Kight??
my_hero
Nov 14 2005, 06:11 PM
DGWN is the best benefit of joining/renewing as a PDGA member.
The DGWN was the sole reason i joined the PDGA. Kinda still is the reason i rejoin. :D
neonnoodle
Nov 14 2005, 06:27 PM
I do have one question: Why do so many people dis-like Nick Kight??
You mean: Why do so many people on this discussion board seemingly dis-like Nick Kight??
Out in the real world there are only a few folks I don't get along with and we are no where near as rude to each other face to face as we tend to be here. If I had to venture a guess at why, it would be because these folks just lean in the direction of thinking the worst of people in general and you mix that with the very limited nature of message board communication and folks that are bad at dealing with any form of confrontation of disagreement tend to behave poorly when under stress.
Don't worry so much about it, I don't.
Questions are still out there for mr. positive...
m_conners
Nov 14 2005, 06:45 PM
Thanks Nick, I was only curious. I see people bad mouthing you a lot from what seems like only a difference of opinion.
Keep on keepin on brotha :cool:
neonnoodle
Nov 14 2005, 06:46 PM
Will do. The PDGA is like a toy store with all cool toys in it. Too much fun to be had for one life time...
LouMoreno
Nov 14 2005, 06:59 PM
Alright already. In order for me to accept Jason back into the PDGA fold I just want to know if he has come to terms and understands that the PDGA is a lot more than just a set of standards for events, a couple paid staff members, or even a few elected volunteers. That it does real good. That by joining into it he joins in with taking on some desparately needed work, that few are willing or able to do.
Nick, I always that it was comments like this that made people dislike the volunteer-bully attitude and created the hostility. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Nov 14 2005, 07:21 PM
so Nick, why can't you be yourself on the internet, or anyone for that matter? Just don't get confused of which Nick you are being for the moment.
Nov 14 2005, 08:15 PM
You guys clearly need some help keeping this mangled thread alive. Thank you Lyle I've always been here, right here. Nick of course I value the PDGA. I especially like the way the technical standards are designed so discs can't kill people. I think this is one of the few aspects your various lists didn't specifically address.
I was on vacation last January in a gated community in Jamaica. I was telling this guy from North Dakota who happed to play frisbee golf all about the PDGA and how great it is. He had no idea. There was some irony in the moment. I point out the rules of the game and the Course Directory and individual player ratings when I'm telling people about the PDGA. So yes, Nick, I appreciate the PDGA.
I used to be hardcore about getting people to join NEFA and I let up some, just because the hardsell wasn't working...and it took too much out of me, the near muggings of people who just didn't want to join NEFA I can't understany WHY but they just didn't. Some people aren't joiners, but a lot of those people make up for it by contributing in other ways. And rarely in any group will everyone contribute the same, and it's counter-productive to bich at people for not doing "their fair share."
But back to appreciating the PDGA, we use PDGA Player Ratings to determine the Men's and Women's Ace Skins at our tourney, and next year we'll determine the two flights, or groups, by PDGA Ratings (I think) as well. We use PDGA rules, we update our course listings periodically on this website, and we enjoy the insightful banter of interesting personalities right here.
Plus the $5 decision.
Pat Govang had an incredible post. Good former PDGA guy stuff. Revolutionary stuff. I'd hate to see Rick Rothstein get short shrift on his mag, but it's wild thinking about non-mag PDGA options and even competition in the PDGA mag department. There be synergies worth exporing.
Me I still got a couple bich points with the PDGA. Mainly, the one-size-fits-all tier requirements regarding beer, poolball height restrictions, and the ridiculous ban on male frontal nudity. Actually, I'm making the last two up.
I'm with the PDGA on no guns. I'm not with the PDGA on Marshals. I'm with the PDGA in following the rules, the same rules, as long as we're talking about the rules of play. And I'm with the PDGA in promoting the still fledgling sport of disc golf.
So there.
Dan Howard I lift all bans you may have imagined I put on you. Please speak. We need you now. I don't undertand anything anymore.
Luke Butch
Nov 14 2005, 08:37 PM
I do have one question: Why do so many people dis-like Nick Kight??
This is an easy answer. He acts like he IS the PDGA, whereas he is really only one of thousands of members. He probably will argue on here any time his views don't 100% agree with something another member posts. He can't let go of an arguement that occured a year ago, even though it didn't involve him. He is not open to change, in fact I don't think I've ever seen him adjust his position on here.
Too bad Craig G is no longer on here. :D I'm sure he could articulate Nick's problems a lot better than I can.
the_kid
Nov 14 2005, 09:11 PM
OK I have a question. Why do Pros have to pay more to be members? I am going from like a $15 Jr membership to a $100 pro and it just doesn't seem right as all people get the same benifits.
the_kid
Nov 14 2005, 09:11 PM
OK I have a question. Why do Pros have to pay more to be members? I am going from like a $15 Jr membership to a $100 pro and it just doesn't seem right as all people get the same benifits.
the_kid
Nov 14 2005, 09:11 PM
OK I have a question. Why do Pros have to pay more to be members? I am going from like a $15 Jr membership to a $100 pro and it just doesn't seem right as all people get the same benifits.
the_kid
Nov 14 2005, 09:24 PM
Sorry about that computer froze :D
Nov 14 2005, 09:29 PM
Luke your wire shot is hideously overexposed in camera-speak but it's there.
As for Nick bashing, Nick bashing is irrelevant. You remember Soylent Green? Soylent Green is people woohoo and some funny guy goes awe you wrecked the ending. Well Luke (btw, we have one of your discs), I think in this case, for figurative purposes OF COURSE, Soylent Green is Nick.
Except it's not really Nick we heard it here Chris Hysell said so. Nick is another guy. This Nick is the cyber-argumentative version of a real life flesh and blood guy who's NOT a dik. I believe it.
Then again _I_ think Michael Kernan is a god...okay a pagan god, and a minor one, but definitely one of the benevolent grape gods, who'd get banished from heavan from time to time but everyone liked anyway.
So put that in your hookah an' smoooke it ya bunch a wacko keyboard obsessophiles. I don't need emoticons. Heck, I don't even need an exclamation point with you.
Moderator005
Nov 14 2005, 09:44 PM
I do have one question: Why do so many people dis-like Nick Kight??
You mean: Why do so many people on this discussion board seemingly dis-like Nick Kight??
Out in the real world there are only a few folks I don't get along with and we are no where near as rude to each other face to face as we tend to be here. If I had to venture a guess at why, it would be because these folks just lean in the direction of thinking the worst of people in general and you mix that with the very limited nature of message board communication and folks that are bad at dealing with any form of confrontation of disagreement tend to behave poorly when under stress.
Don't worry so much about it, I don't.
Mike, I can assure you that there is no "seemingly" about it, both on the message board and in real life. You can ask any number of people in the states of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland who know Nick Kight and there is widespread dislike for him. His thick-headed attitude is just as prevalent in real life as on here. There are a great many who have been completely turned off to the Mid-Atlantic Disc Club because of Nick's involvement with it. Nick continues to plod along in denial partly because people in general (especially disc golfers) tend to avoid confrontation and don't tell Nick to his face what they really think of him. But as more and more people realize that Nick is doing more damage than good for the sport, they are slowly, but surely, overcoming their reservations about saying so.
Luke Butch
Nov 14 2005, 09:56 PM
Sorry about that computer froze :D
post-*****!
Luke Butch
Nov 14 2005, 09:58 PM
Except it's not really Nick we heard it here Chris Hysell said so. Nick is another guy. This Nick is the cyber-argumentative version of a real life flesh and blood guy who's NOT a dik. I believe it.
.
We can only hope.
As for the wire shot, I don't think I will ever foget that.It was the worst bad beat I've ever had, even worse than when my AA lost to runner runner straight during the saturday night garage poker game. Hopefully it will make #1 blooper.
NEngle
Nov 14 2005, 10:39 PM
Ummmm, so did anyone notice that non-member fees did not (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06TourStandards.pdf) go up?
idahojon
Nov 14 2005, 11:35 PM
Ummmm, so did anyone notice that non-member fees did not (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06TourStandards.pdf) go up?
Hello????
Actually, did anyone notice that Theo posted right here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=468963) on this very thread about a week ago that the Board of Directors voted to keep the non-member fee at $5.00?
Luke Butch
Nov 14 2005, 11:44 PM
Ummmm, so did anyone notice that non-member fees did not (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06TourStandards.pdf) go up?
Yeah, we did.
bruce_brakel
Nov 14 2005, 11:49 PM
Apparently y'all voted to raise the fees before you voted to keep them the same. Any of you interested in higher office?
Everyone who cared, noticed. We all sent each other congratulatory e-mails saying, "Congratulations and thank you for helping to 'Mier' the $8 non-member fee."
:D
You did the right thing too. I don't know how many TDs actually contacted you but I heard from quite a few who were not willing to attempt to sanction lower divisions with those kind of fees. So thank you.
quickdisc
Nov 15 2005, 12:20 AM
It will help the thread drift , from drifting.
idahojon
Nov 15 2005, 12:46 AM
Apparently y'all voted to raise the fees before you voted to keep them the same.
Actually, we approved a budget that was based on total revenues that included, in part, those proposed fee increases. Since the fee change was not a popular thing, the budget will now be revised to reduce some programs and services to a level that can be sustained by revenues that include the current fees.
Any of you interested in higher office?
Not I. I haven't gotten high for over 30 years. I do quite well without it.
You did the right thing too. I don't know how many TDs actually contacted you but I heard from quite a few who were not willing to attempt to sanction lower divisions with those kind of fees. So thank you.
You are quite welcome. Though I, personally, was contacted directly by only one TD who had concerns. I forwarded his well-thought-out message to the other Board members for consideration. As I've said before, the personal contact is what counts.
NEngle
Nov 15 2005, 01:01 AM
Ummmm, so did anyone notice that non-member fees did not (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06TourStandards.pdf) go up?
Hello????
Actually, did anyone notice that Theo posted right here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=468963) on this very thread about a week ago that the Board of Directors voted to keep the non-member fee at $5.00?
I quit watching this thread when Kight & the Kight-Haters showed up.
krupicka
Nov 15 2005, 09:56 AM
Ummmm, so did anyone notice that non-member fees did not (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06TourStandards.pdf) go up?
Yes, but on the tour guidelines, the wording has been changed from
It is suggested that B & C Tier event TDs indicate on entry forms that all non-current and non-member players must add $5 to their entry fee. -05TourStandards
to
It is suggested that B & C Tier event TDs indicate on entry forms that all current PDGA members will receive a $5 discount to their entry fee. -06TourStandards
So two questions:
a) In the suggested entry fees, is that $5 included in the net recommended cap listed? ie. does that mean that the recommeneded entry fee compared to last year is in effect reduced by $5?
b) How does this affect payout tables? A $5 temp membership is easily understood as not included in the calculations. A $5 discount (to my ears) sounds like one is given a break without a reduction in value of goods payed for and that the payout should not be reduced because of it.
Nov 15 2005, 10:00 AM
I can't believe people are cluttering up this thread with LAST week's announcements. Geez.
sandalman
Nov 15 2005, 12:06 PM
Any of you interested in higher office?
i am thinking of running for oversight director. someone needs to be asking some tougher questions in an official capacity.
gnduke
Nov 15 2005, 01:28 PM
So two questions:
a) In the suggested entry fees, is that $5 included in the net recommended cap listed? ie. does that mean that the recommeneded entry fee compared to last year is in effect reduced by $5?
b) How does this affect payout tables? A $5 temp membership is easily understood as not included in the calculations. A $5 discount (to my ears) sounds like one is given a break without a reduction in value of goods payed for and that the payout should not be reduced because of it.
Mike,
Those were my questions/concerns as well.
A discount sounds like a drop in fee with no drop in payout as well.
I am also concerned on the effects of the mandatory player packs on the payout for lower divisions with the drop in maximum entry fees.
Probably need a new thread for these.
Nov 15 2005, 02:10 PM
Dan Howard I lift all bans you may have imagined I put on you. Please speak. We need you now. I don't undertand anything anymore.
Sorry, Jason, I have been doing my Steve Dodge impersonation and working on a DVD for our Pop Warner season. Not that I needed even more reason to respect everything that Steve does, but after about 4 hours of using the razor tool in Adobe Premiere I was ready to go out and kill squirrels to vent. With my teeth. Man, that's a lot of headache-inducing work.
I hope that Nick will welcome you back to the fold now. Perhaps he has a hot towel and mint for your pillow as well. Nothing says 'welcome back' like a nice foot massage, either.
Your points about Pat Govang's points are spot on, but Pat has commented on this in the past (in response to my suggestion about DGWN if I remember correctly) and it pretty much went nowhere. It got there fast, however, which is nice.
I sometimes wonder if the lack of competition in disc golf publications that he PDGA has (perhaps unwittingly, perhaps not) caused might have something to do with the sport's relatively slow growth rate. The new Disc Golf Magazine looks pretty darn cool (http://www.discgolfmag.com/), but how long can it stick around when the sport's largest organization has granted a virtual monopoly to DGWN? Everyone that I know (and while I'm not John Kerry, that's a decent number nonetheless) has said that the reason they first joined the PDGA was for the free mag. Everyone. That's not to say that the PDGA does nothing else (prepare soon-to-come sarcastic response to Nick's soon-to-come pompous reply), just that's what I've been told by a lot of folks over the years.
Who knows? It's Ice Bowl season (almost) and I'm looking forward to some of Roach's chili, Alicia's brownies, and Lickburgers. Maybe I'll throw a disc or 2 as well.
my_hero
Nov 15 2005, 02:16 PM
I see that the PDGA has opted not to increase the nonmember dues, but what are the new rates for staying current? What are the 2006 rates?
tbender
Nov 15 2005, 02:19 PM
Check this (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06MemberMerchForm.pdf) out.
No change.
my_hero
Nov 15 2005, 02:25 PM
Thanks TB. I was looking for that form.
So $100 for Birdie Club which includes your $55 membership and a personalized disc.
$150 for Ace Club which includes your $55 membership, a personalized disc, and shirt? No more metal minis? That's one expensive shirt.
johnrock
Nov 15 2005, 02:43 PM
A year or two ago the shirts were very nice collared shirts with a cool logo on the chest and name and PDGA # on the sleeve. Maybe they will still toss in the mini.
quickdisc
Nov 15 2005, 03:03 PM
Yes , that would be a cool way to Thank the Ace and Birdie club members.
"$150 for Ace Club which includes your $55 membership, a personalized disc, and a T-shirt? No more metal minis?
How about personalized Wooden Mini's ? :D
bruce_brakel
Nov 15 2005, 03:22 PM
Meanwhile, if the PDGA is concerned with raising revenues, how about reducing the zones of exclusion? Does an NT in the middle of Ohio [just for example -- I'm not picking on them -- I'm just more familiar with geography east of the Mississippi] really need to have no sanctioned disc golf in all of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Tennessee, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and most of New York, North Carolina and South Carolina, and parts of Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Iowa, Ontario and Wisconsin, in order to find enough players to have a successful event? You think there won't be unsanctioned tournaments in all those states on that date?
We gave up our zone of exclusion for our stupid little BC-tier last month so a couple of Indiana events could also go sanctioned on the same date, and we had 140 players. Last year the Great Lakes Open let us run a little C-tier on their weekend and they did not suffer. Good events don't need zones of exclusion. Bad events [again, no rap on any event in particular, it was just familiar geography] shouldn't be propped up with 12 state black outs that deprive the PDGA of sanctioning fees from other events.
There has to be a better solution for everyone than simply shutting down sanctioned disc golf in the eastern United States every time there is an NT anywhere in the eastern United States.
Moderator005
Nov 15 2005, 03:38 PM
Meanwhile, if the PDGA is concerned with raising revenues, how about reducing the zones of exclusion? Does an NT in the middle of Ohio [just for example -- I'm not picking on them -- I'm just more familiar with geography east of the Mississippi] really need to have no sanctioned disc golf in all of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Tennessee, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and most of New York, North Carolina and South Carolina, and parts of Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Iowa, Ontario and Wisconsin, in order to find enough players to have a successful event? You think there won't be unsanctioned tournaments in all those states on that date?
I know you chose middle Ohio just as an example, but it's a good one. There's only a few people, if any, that drive from eastern Pennsylvania out to Columbus, OH for the Brent Hambrick Memorial Open NT. Does the PDGA not realize just how far it is from eastern Pennsylvania to there? There can't be a PDGA event in Allentown, PA because of a National Tour event the same weekend over 450 miles away?
Nov 15 2005, 04:11 PM
my_hero
Nov 15 2005, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the clarification Mr. Hoeniger, but who said anything about T-shirts? I think your quote button is broken. :D
my_hero
Nov 15 2005, 04:22 PM
Like this Claydog?
http://www.marlo.com/an/hol/hal/akbroth.gif
discgolfdog
Nov 15 2005, 04:27 PM
sweet!
idahojon
Nov 15 2005, 04:38 PM
My_Hero...Quickdisc's post that followed yours has "T-shirt."
my_hero
Nov 15 2005, 04:44 PM
My_Hero...Quickdisc's post that followed yours has "T-shirt."
<marquee> Believe nothing that you read, and only half of what you see. </marquee>
neonnoodle
Nov 15 2005, 05:16 PM
It's nice to see everyone playing together so well.
I liked the "until Kight and Kight-haters showed up" line back there though... funny.
$15, $40, $55, $100, $150, $1000+ Membership fees in a volunteer organization.
The only folks thinking about whether they are getting equal value in junk back are the ones paying $55 and under...
I'll leave it at that considering my popularity with the "Kight-haters".
Nov 15 2005, 05:23 PM
so why do pro's have to pay a higher membership fee?
do we get more from the PDGA?
maybe like 15 dollars worth of extra volunteering?
neonnoodle
Nov 15 2005, 05:35 PM
so why do pro's have to pay a higher membership fee?
do we get more from the PDGA?
maybe like 15 dollars worth of extra volunteering?
To cover the cost of banning and then rebanning all of your alias' from the message board Dave Vincent, maybe?
Nov 15 2005, 05:35 PM
Hey, 1099s ain't free!
Pizza God
Nov 15 2005, 05:40 PM
I am happy with what I get for my $150 per year dues.
I hope to be able to join the Eagle club in a few years.
Nov 15 2005, 05:40 PM
so why do pro's have to pay a higher membership fee?
do we get more from the PDGA?
maybe like 15 dollars worth of extra volunteering?
To cover the cost of banning and then rebanning all of your alias' from the message board Dave Vincent, maybe?
umm, dude. my pdga number and email address are in my profile. last time i checked i wasn't anyone's alias.
so is there a real reason why there's a difference in dues?
bruce_brakel
Nov 15 2005, 06:27 PM
The Marshal Program benefits pros more than amateurs. The National Tour benefits pros more than ams. Theoretically, the PDGA's efforts to create new sources of sponsorship benefits pros more than ams. The PDGA approved merchastravaganza tournament system is usually run for the benefit of the pros as a means of creating "added cash." A variety of small changes to the competition format benefit pros more than ams, including the Pros Playing Am rule, the trophy-only entry fee for pro divisions, the added cash requirements for A and B tiers, etc. Are there many casino games that are typically run at a net loss by the operators? Most PDGA TDs run their pro divisions at break even or net loss every single time.
Yeah, pros are definately getting the shaft here.
Tbranch
Nov 15 2005, 06:33 PM
That's worth $8 a month to me!
-T.
Nov 19 2005, 03:17 PM
Yeah, pros are definately getting the shaft here.
i didn't say they were.
you take the shaft, don't you?
Nov 20 2005, 01:37 AM
www.united disc golf.com (no spaces of course)
:D
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